WoW is P2W - Do you agree?

Then, with all respect, your judgement is gravely worng and continuing reading this or the discussion with you in this topic is pointless

I would elaborate but we’re not allowed discussion apparently.

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I explain further in the rest of the post in how I translate this to WoW
In general its in bad taste to cut someone off at the first sentance when they’ve taken the time to write out an arguement

Also this is not a right or wrong topic, its an opinion topic

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I disagree. It is not P2W.

Maybe P4W or P5W though.

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Just read that Realm 1st /Realm 1st class achiev is available only if 40$ extra:) (Perhaps i’m wrong :slight_smile:

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You pay others to “beat” the game so yes, in that sense its p2w.

If thats actually winning is up to the individual

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That is hardly the same thing, as in Vanilla there was no real money involved, you could acquire and spend gold only through gameplay.

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This is quite simple to understand - If a game offers a service for real money that allows you to acquire account progress, that’s pay to win.

Of course there will be a lot of people saying: “Depends on what you mean by win”.
Sure, WoW doesn’t have a clear definition of Win, there is only progress, and if you can buy or facilitate progress using real money, that is indeed pay to win.

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Since the OP stablished the criteria for “Pay to win” and excluded variables like “How much pay to win is it”, yes, it can be binary.

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I was thinking it like someone asked “Is the Earth large?”. For the answer to be only binary, we need to know where the dividing line is, because otherwise I can draw the dividing line on the size of an electron and say “Yes, it is” (but then pretty much everything is large). Or I can draw it at the size of the universe and say “No, it’s not” (but then pretty much everything is small).

And quite honestly, every one of us in here is doing exactly that; we simply argue on whose dividing line is the most appropriate.

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The written abbreviation for pay-to-win : the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money

By definition, no
WoW is not a pay to win, even with the Token to Gold conversation to buy a boost or to buy a crafted gear or achievement, it not gives you advantage
You still remain a player who can’t do the numers and no amount of bought RiO score, or M+ runs and the best gear you can immagine will change the fact, someone in a basic green geat and skills will wipe the floor with you in PvP or preform better than you

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I gave up reading the arguments after the first 10 or so posts as it was clear the OP wasn’t looking for a discussion but an echo chamber.

There’s no right or wrong answer, as there’s not a way to “win” at World of Warcraft. I don’t like the implimentation of the token either but buying gold has always been a part of the game, and trading gold for services has been too.

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I guess it depends on your definition of P2W.
For me Pay to Win means that the only (realistic) way to win is by forking over real money.

By my definition WoW is not P2W. You can succeed perfectly well at any aspect of the game without spending a single penny (or cent) of real money (outside of sub fees).

Now can you shortcut the process by spending gold (and by extention, via tokens, real money)?
Sure, you can buy gear (crafted or BoE drops) on AH.
You can buy boosts.
You can get Rating / Gear score by both of the above which might get you into groups a little faster.

But neither will make you any better at the game.
Nobody is losing in a PVP match because they’re up against someone who paid real money to be “better”.
Nobody is achieving high end M+ victories because they paid real money to be “better”.

And for clarity being Carried / Boosted in a Mythic raid isn’t winning. Whether is was paid for or not.
I was carried in some raids over the years, I got some mounts and achievements but I certainly wasn’t Winning (whatever that means in an MMORPG).

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I am gonna go with yes.

Because of the mix of token (aka gold buying) + rampant boosting service scene (that blizzard allows).

You can literally buy your way to all clears and gear you want without actually playing the game (like… if you farm the gold in game it wouldn’t be a problem). You can literally sweep your card for a mythic clear (for example).

I would say that qualifies as P2W for me.

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Can you buy anything that cannot be acquited without buying it?
You can buy a Mythic Clear, sure.
But you can also do a Mythic Clear without spending a single penny.

And also, is a boost / carry winning?

Try to perceive this from Blizzard’s business perspective.

This sword would be P2W:

Gladus, Stipendium Vincere
Soulbound
One-Hand
1-2 Damage
Chance on hit: Instantly kills the target.
Requires level 1
Price: 100 euros.

But Blizzard would never ever sell this sword.

Why? Because players would recognize it as obviously unfair, and they would reject it, refuse to buy it, and shun anyone who did.

So it’s not good business for Blizzard to have that kind of P2W design.

It simply wouldn’t be popular amongst the playerbase.

And the whole ballgame for Blizzard is to sell us stuff that we are okay with and are willing to buy and even popularize.

And the things we want to buy are obviously the things that lean into what’s desirable in the game, be it cosmetics, progression, or wealth.

So Blizzard are really careful about how they do this, because they have to sell it to us without having it perceived as compromising the game’s integrity.

So selling gold and boosts is really smart, because players don’t perceive it the same way as the sword above.

“Blizzard are just facilitating an exchange between players!”
“Buying a boost is really just a formality, because leveling is easy anyway!”

We don’t feel we’re compromising our principles by buying these things, because Blizzard have only toed it to the line – they haven’t crossed it.
They’re not selling us Platinum currency or unique legendaries.

They’re always designing these in ways that offer players an olive branch, so we don’t reject them.

“Mounts can be bought with money on the Online Store in a subscription game?! Outrageous!!”
“Oh, you can also buy them with gold? Then it’s okay.”

There’s always a built-in design angle that makes these monetization schemes go down with the players more easily, because Blizzard wants us to buy their stuff. They don’t want us to be upset about the Online Store or think that the game is P2W or outrageously expensive.

“You have to pay for Early Access?!”

That would be unfair, right?

So Blizzard designs the offer in such a way that players become more agreeable to it.

“Hi, Blizzard here! We’re holding back endgame quests, profession cooldowns, Mythic dungeons, so there’s no advantage and Early Access is really just extra value for buying the Epic edition.”

“Oh okay, I guess it’s fair then!”

It’s all about making players agreeable with the monetization schemes and then push the limit and nudge them toward new ones.

“Oh there’s a Trading Post? Cool! You’re not going to sell Trader’s Tender on the Online Store, right Blizzard?”

“Of course. We promise we won’t do that.”

“Great! Thanks Blizz, you’re the best!”

“We do however have this new Transmogrification set that you can buy on the Online Store. But if you don’t buy it, then it’ll appear on the Trading Post later.”

“I guess that’s cool, because then I can still get it even if I don’t buy it on the Online Store, but isn’t it a bit like selling Traders Tender indirectly…?”

“You’ll earn more Traders Tender every month, and items will rotate on the Trading Post, so you’ll eventually still be able to get the things you want.”

“I guess… Just don’t add too many items to the Trading Post, because I’m getting a bit low on Traders Tender already.”

“Sure…”

It’s all just very clever business.

Remember, back in 2010 the line for what players were willing to allow was miles away from where it is today. Blizzard came out with the Celestial Steed and there was an uproar like you wouldn’t believe it.
And then Blizzard offered an olive branch by saying that this was going to be a rare thing. They would only add purchases like the Celestial Steed very rarely, because it wasn’t the intent that the game should have a large Online Store, but rather that players who wanted to treat themselves should have a small opportunity to do so.
And then players were kind of okay with that, because Blizzard had just said that they wouldn’t be adding more mounts very often.
But then, over the years, as we’ve seen, the meaning of “not very often” is free to interpretation, and Blizzard just slowly nudges the playerbase toward being more agreeable and accepting of new Online Store additions more often.

Blizzard are just really good salesmen.

Game companies that sell blatant P2W like the sword I invented above, they’re amateurs, because players see that for what it is, and many players reject it and refuse to play those games because of it.

Blizzard are clever, because they design their monetization so that players can see it for what they want it to be. There’s always an angle designed into it that allows the player to say: “I’m okay with this.”
And that’s what makes Blizzard the pros.

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You can buy WoW tokens and sell them for gold, and gold can be used to buy gear (power). It can also be used to enchant and gem your gear. It can also be used to craft gear. It can also be used to max professions.

Yes it’s P2W. If you want to it to be.

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I had exactly the same - Super Mario Bros 3 was a blast with that little gadget!!

On topic, in a way it is P2W with mythic boosts via gold (either earned or bought with tokens), however that doesn’t immediately make you the level of RWF guilds.
On the other hand, it isn’t as gold really only gets you cosmetics or you might get lucky on the AH and get some decent stuff

Bravo, I could have not wrote better than this.

I know you tried to define “P2W” in the OP but I have to disagree. In my mind no amount of gear or charater progression can make you win much. You still have to know how to play the game or you’ll fail in any meaningfully challenging content even with all the gear gold can get you.

Another issue I have with calling this game P2W is the conversion rate of real money to gold. The amount of money you’d have to spend to get the gold to really gear your characters through boosts is insane, and you’re still only paying for a chance to get the loot you want. Sure depending on how much you pay you can get VIP runs where everything you can use goes to you, but those can get expensive and still not guaranteed to get you much.

So in theory yes, you could just shell out hundreds, if not thousands of real life doubloons, but realistically most of the gold people pay to get boosted is more likely to have come from in-game activities than RMT.

At best I’d not call it P2W, but rather “P2PSTGP” or “Pay to Partially Skip the Gearing Process”, which given how easy it is to gear a character nowadays, it doesn’t really get you much winning in return.

Just to not forget to mention stuff like mounts, I suppose you could say the game is P2W in the sense that you can pay someone to kill a mythic boss for you so you can get a guaranteed mount. So if that’s what you define as winning, then I guess it is.