You’ll need stat squishes for as long as Blizzard keeps the current rate of gear progression. It’s completely maddening how much our stats keep increasing. When I entered Legion I was doing like 300k DPS or something? At the end I did 2.4 million. That’s an 8 fold increase. In early vanilla I did around 500, maybe a little more, and at the start of Wrath I did around 8 times more at ~4k.
They literally give us as much power in one expansion as they used to do for 3 expansions combined. Every single tier is a total power reset and our DPS literally doubles. It’s completely insane, and the worst part is we can’t even tell it’s happening because of the structure of the game and all the scaling, so it isn’t satisfying at all.
No idea how you where doing that much dps in legion your number cant be fact sorry nobody was hitting millions.
The numbers we have atm are just fine and tbh they havent even confirmed if a level squish is inc they are talking about it just like they did at blizzcon.
Im sorry but i have to agree with the warrior and i dont want to be mean but you need help .
Your tones towards others is not needed you can show passion without aggrasion.
I think you either need to step away from them game or rethink how your post.
To be fair I actually died on that pull, so ye. But look at Sweetbreaker.
How about this? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/nGbvkfaxrLyHMWNq#fight=12&type=damage-done
Absolutely did hit millions in Legion. Honestly I’m just tired of people posting BS that can be debunked in literally seconds, or playing devil’s advocate for Blizzard. Just stop it. Discuss your position honestly, and I’ll treat you with great respect. I promise. I also promise to try really hard to respect you regardless, but you’re going to have to excuse me for getting frustrated with it.
Your talking burst and please dont be uncouth towards me i will never be your mate i find you one of the most rude and irritating people on the forums with how you address others.
I hope they dont do a level squish or stat squish or another item level squish and i hope they people who do want these things go to and stay on classic servers.
I really don’t care about your opinion of me. You literally just told me I was a liar straight to my face by using a completely made-up “fact” that can be debunked in seconds. Why did you do that? Do you think you’re not being rude when you call me a liar?
And what about those who want classic-like gameplay but doesn’t want 15 year old content that doesn’t evolve? Honestly I’ll gladly take a new server type and a total reset, and then you can go on playing the live game without squishes, if that’s what you want. That’s fine.
I told you what I think and I told you what they said that they think.
Good! Glad to hear that.
Yes I am. Do you not see me pushing to get the old talent system back? To get rares and elites back the way they were? That’s what like 90% of my posts have been about.
Exactly but that doesn’t mean we can’t stay realistic and refrain from asking unrealistic things.
Quote me where I specifically mention Ion’s pride.
No I didn’t. Ion does not have sole decision about what or what does not go in to this game. It’s a team effort which is why I keep saying “They” and not “He” or “Ion”.
That petition had nothing to do with Scaling and everything to do with just wanting Vanilla-only servers. I signed that thing myself.
But good luck trying to get them to do that is what i’m saying. Yes, I do not know for a fact if they will remove it or not however they have a track record of not admitting their mistakes and not making the changes that many players want them to make.
Which you don’t have at lower levels which means that obtaining those spells makes you grow significantly stronger? Helloo?
^ It’s not just Twinks that are affected.
^ Because many players either couldn’t give less of a sh* about us or hate us for misguided reasons. The second that people mention the word “Twink” readers lose all interest and assume that you “just want to gank noobs”.
It’s a pointless endeavor.
There you go. Ironic though since you’re such a patriot of progression and customization which is what Twinking is really all about.
I just checked the numbers and it would actually work out. heck, it would probably be the only way that it could.
This would literally be disastrous especially for levels that have gear that is specifically for those levels such as Raid gear.
No matter what they are going to decide – My level 60 characters must remain the same level as the raids at what currently is level 60.
If the tier sets require level 30, My character must be lv30. Simple as that.
Which is why I can’t take your opinion on this seriously and why I didn’t mention it in the first place because many people have that attitude.
It has nothing to do with bugs. He send you the items you forget to loot so that they’re not lost.
I didn’t mean the level for zones, I meant for PvP brackets and what level should turn in to what should they do a level squish.
Yes, those numbers are what I meant.
I agree wholeheartedly. Currently 1-60 stat distribution is near-perfect.
It only ramps up after lv100+. IF you want to do a squish then squish only lv100-120. Leave 1-90 alone. It’s really good as it is right now.
You should care. Peoples opinions of you reflect how serious they take you. If they don’t take you serious then you might as well not be posting at all.
You can have classic-like gameplay but not have the classic numbers. You will never again crit for 2k and have 5-6k health at endgame. That time has passed.
Anyhow… Here’s the numbers that I figured out on how a Level Squish should work. I may one day open a seperate thread after I write out the details but here’s the basic gist of it.
–
These numbers are according to Ion Hazzikostas’s comment stating that lv120 would turn in to lv60.
This is most likely the only way to properly reduce the amount of levels that we currently have.
Some levels have been manually rounded off downward to make sure that the original bracket distribution does not change.
This is very - VERYimportant. It is important that the samecharacters will remain in the same PvP bracket as they currently are on live servers.
I can’t possibly stress that enough.
An example of this would be level 19. Half of 19 is 9.5 but since we can not have half levels I rounded it off downward to 9 because ‘10’ would be the next bracket.
Therefore characters that previously (currently on live) were level 19 will still remain in the same PvP bracket as before and thus all will be good.
ALWAYS scale someones xp DOWNward, this way if they are say, lv9.5, they still have the CHOICE to stay in the lv5-9 PvP bracket rather than being FORCED in to the lv10-14 pvp bracket should you scale them upward and make lv10 by force. Players will hate you for that.
This is the ONLY way that a level-squish could POSSIBLY work.
Do NOT attempt any other numbers. They WILL screw players over.
There is in fact a way that everyone will be happy or at least relieved and this is that way.
Eh, what?
level 9,5 = level 9 with 50% XP to level 10. I see no issue there. By extension, someone who would be locked at L19 with 80% to L20 would be, after halving that, be scaled down to L9 with 90% to L10 (19,8/2 = 9,9). Not sure why come up with this rounding, it’s completely unneeded.
Because they may decide to use different numbers that could end up forcing some people to gain an unwanted level.
Yes it wouldnt be an issue if they used the numbers that I listed and thus always round off downwards but that may not be the case in the end so I wanted to stress it just in case.
The biggest thing that i’m afraid of is the possibility that they might - for example - make all existing characters even levels before squishing the levels by half because “it’d just be easier to do that way”, which would be catastrophic for players that want to remain in their current pvp brackets. If they just round it off to even levels then that could end up making all lv19s level 20. That’s why i suggest only rounding off numbers downwards so that in the case of them altering levels --a lv19 would be lv18, aka lv9 after the squish and thus remain in the same pvp bracket that they’re in now.
I’d hate it if they screw this up out of sheer “laziness”.
Anything else than dividing it by a number (which would not require rounding for the reasons I mentioned) would need a lot of manual work and is extremely unlikely to happen. Why would they do it when they can do something like new level = old level / X
Plus, if twinking is not officially supported by Blizzard, they can completely disregard it.
They can but that doesn’t mean that they should. Many people that have twinks made them over a decade ago. I myself for example have more progress on this 60 warrior than many people have on their main lv120. If they can keep us in mind when doing a change like this then they should.
It is less about twinks and more about making sure that nobody ends up being negatively affected by this change.
In my humble opinion the level squish is a great idea. I don’t feel like a perpetually increasing level cap creates any meaningful progression. I’d rather have the power of my character came from the available abilities and - especially - my way of using them than from an arbitrary number.
I’m only for the level squish if they don’t frick up soloing of old raids, if I can’t solo a raid (which I could pre squish) at the new level 60 I’d be pissed
No, I’m not. If you say there’s one difficulty level and one for groups, and then there’s rares which can rarely be found (hence the name rare) you have not created a range of difficulty levels for people. You’ve made one for solo play and one for groups. That doesn’t help.
Well now you did, but you spent a heckuvalong time saying “I don’t like it because Blizzard won’t implement it”. Nothing meaningful can come out of that. I’m glad you finally decided to actually engage in the arguments and make some interesting points - now we may actually get somewhere!
Yes, I see that, but at the same time, when I suggest we add a level squish (back to 60 levels), talents, and remove the scaling - all features of vanilla, you’re actively working against me by claiming that Blizzard won’t do it, and coming up with solutions to a completely different issue.
I have no problem with disagreements. What gets me is when you start arguing against yourself and refuse to admit it.
You do not know what’s realistic and what isn’t, and the only reason you think you know is because you think Ion and team won’t get rid of the system they just invented because they’re proud of it and put a lot of work in. You’ve said it multiple times this thread, you’re still saying it, so I cba scrolling through all that again to find the quote, because there’s no point quoting you saying what you’re still saying, even as you’re asking me to say quote it.
You probably just failed to notice that, at some levels when you get a spell, other spells actually get scaled down and do less damage all of a sudden. There are also cases where the mobs just scale up way more than you would expect because everyone gets massively powerful new abilities around that time.
I personally remember seeing it with Frostbolt when you get Ice Lance, as well as Rake when you get Rip. The examples are quite abudant; you just didn’t notice I guess.
Twinks are the only ones meaningfully affected. Yeah, levellers will be put into other brackets, but they get put into other brackets all the time, so meh.
Let’s just say your case wasn’t helped by the screaming and yelling and crying when you got your own queue recently. I can respect you wanting to play low level PvP because some spells are missing that you don’t think makes the game better, or because you think the pacing is better, or whatever. Perfectly cool with me. But don’t even think about trying to tell me that it’s misguided to call the vast majority of twink players people who wanna feel like they pwn n00bz without actually being good at the game.
Twinking is the exact opposite of progression - you’re locking your character down after you’ve gotten a BiS list in order to metaphorically **** on anyone actually trying to progress their characters.
It probably would, but I don’t think it’s the right approach. Nevertheless - yeah. It probably could because Blizzard already did a lot of the legwork for us by increasing the level ranges for a lot of other zones.
Still, I don’t think it’s the right solution. I understand the concerns you’re coming up with soon though, so let’s adress them in turn.
If 60 ends up mapping to 33 or something like that for whatever reason, simply make the instances level 33? It’s not like they even remotely resemble what they used to anyway. Generally they’re so easy that you can 10-man them even at the appropriate level, even though they were designed for 40-man, several of the instances have been completely removed, etc. etc. Honestly, if you want a proper level 60 experience, classic is what you want.
Oh well if you can’t take my opinion seriously why are you spending 10 hours of your life posting mile-long messages to me?
See, that’s the difference between the attitude I’ve been taking and the attitude you’ve been taking. I was actually trying to take you seriously and find out what was motivating your hatred of the level squish, and you completely stolewalled me and now you’re telling me you’re not taking me seriously, and yet you have the temerity to jump on a bandwagon suggesting that I’m being rude.
Why?!
Nah. It’s completely possible to not loot items and never get them. I think he does intend to send you epics, yes, but sometimes he sends you grays and various other things because you tried to open a clam for meat and your inventory was full, or because the server improperly despawned the mob and the item became unobtainable for whatever reason.
Aha. Well, let’s read on and find out why you consider PvP brackets so important.
I’m perfectly aware with that and OK with it. I just want to avoid it hitting millions, because it’s bloody unreadable. If we want less squishes, it’s going to have to grow slower.
Well that’s what a lot of people suggested in the first place when you were busy saying things like “What does level 9.5 mean? I don’t understand”. Well, it means level 9 with a ~45% filled XP bar (since the old level 20 required more XP than the old level 19). It’s really quite simple actually.
And I can’t possibly disagree more. If you wanna twink and want those very precise brackets to remain true for you, have at it. We can make that happen since we’ve separated the twinks from everyone else, so we don’t even need to think further about that.
For levellers, the brackets are an old crutch for Blizzard not having invented a rating system or a fluid bracket system at the time. The brackets came into World of Warcraft before Halo 2, before TrueSkill, before proper matchmaking. Warcraft 3’s matchmaking was a broken joke, Starcraft used ELO and was a slightly less broken joke, but still didn’t work that well because people kept making new accounts.
There is no apparent reason why a level 29 should be matched against a level 20, but not a level 30. The only reason is if you wanna twink it very precisely and stomp everyone, and as I’ve already said I just don’t care about that. I actively want it to go away. Since we have completely diametrically opposed goals in this regard, we’re just never going to agree.
I really, really think you’re letting the tail wag the dog here. It’s literally more important to you that people can twink while not freezing their experience than it is for levelling up to be fun and engaging? I think your priorities are screwed up. I completely disagree with where you’re going with this, and that’s that.
But at least we now know where our differences lie, and we’ve presented our sides of the argument, and anyone reading this thread can read it and come to whatever they think is a reasonable conclusion, which is all I really wanted. That is, assuming they can get through all the junk we put in their way first.
I agree with that but if they decide that sacrificing a small community playing the game a very specific (and possibly never intended to be viable) way for a change that’s to help everyone else, it can happen - especially for those below 60. The former level caps are not something I’d expect to be affected.
Just because there’s one difficulty level doesn’t mean that there aren’t mobs of varying difficuly.
I have never said anything even remotely like that. Quote me where I did.
You are expecting them to remove several recent changes. That is never. Ever. Going to happen. I’m not arguing against myself at all, I am just separating what is logical to expect of them and the things that I wish would happen.
But by all means – keep asking them to remove level scaling. I’ll be the first to tell you I was wrong should they actually remove it. That may take 7+ years though.
Not at all. I’m merely looking at a track record of 15 years and telling you that it is unrealistic to expect them to behave out of their character.
You won’t be able to find me saying specifically something like “they won’t remove it because Ion is too proud”, because I never said that, nor would I.
I don’t play either of those classes, so I wouldn’t know. I just haven’t noticed anything even remotely like that with Warriors or Outlaw Rogues.
I’ll make sure to tell you “I told you so” when lv30s complain that they’re getting farmed by lv 45s in Bgs.
I’m not going to argue with you about that because it’s all pure speculation.
Twinking is the act of progressing your character as far as you possibly can at a level of your choosing. It is the very core idea of progression.
Perfectly halving existing levels and brackets isn’t going to work? I call bull****. I literally provided you with a list of numbers that show you that it’s perfectly possible.
What kind of twisted math did you use to have lv60 end up at lv33 and why would Blizzard pick that method over perfectly halving the numbers?
Right back at you. I believe scaling is here to stay.
Somebody has to and i’m just a nice person that gives you the courtesy of being heard.
Well for starters… I don’t have to delete 60 swear words before posting a comment, I look at things objectively and reasonably and I do my research. Oh, and I provide numbers instead of hypotheticals.
You are rude. Also wasn’t I the first to point that out? I didn’t jump on any bandwagon.
That’s fine.
I never asked what it meant. I said that you can’t separate brackets on half-levels.
The current brackets have worked for 14+ years and we don’t need a low lv rating (pvp) system.
Wrong. Its because you have to separate levels at some point and these are nice numbers to do it on. Also, what makes you think people wont make new twinks on the new level cap should they change?
Twinking has nothing to do with leveling.
You’re not gonna look that great but okay.
Theres no reason for them to have to make that sacrifice and if they do make it then it’d be purely to spite twinks because making this change is again… not needed to achieve the most positive result.
Honestly my favourite point was the talent tree and the note on making WoW an MMORPG again.
I’ve been saying for years that instead of dumbing the game down in every direction spend good time and effort on reinventing the classic talent tree, more depth, more choices.
Blizzard can’t balance so balance issues imo are a moot point.
Give us something to strive for per level, make classes feel powerful and skilled again. The class quests used to give me a real sense of belonging as that particular class. Flesh them out.
I’d also like to see professions completely overhauled but unfortunately Blizzard seem to be catering to a totally different crowd these days.
why overreact about something we first of all don’t know if it will happen. Second, we don’t know how it will be implemented. Wait and see and if they come with a proposal/way to do it then give feedback to that .
![:smiling_face_with_three_hearts:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiling_face_with_three_hearts.png?v=6" ":smiling_face_with_three_hearts:")