Prometheus Season 22 Solo Challenge

General Discussion
160

Let’s look at the “huge benefit” to my hero that you claim helping other people gives me…

Running a solo T6 Nephalem Rift…

32,968,840,743 = XP before running the rift https://i.imgur.com/kCt5zbP.jpg
33,435,347,756 = XP atfer the guardian has died https://i.imgur.com/HBIJNkF.jpg
61,625,000 = XP gained for handing in completion https://i.imgur.com/EEzVeD2.jpg
33,496,972,756 = XP after handing in https://i.imgur.com/8KIyXyD.jpg

XP gained from kills = (33,435,347,756 - 32,968,840,743) = 466,507,013
XP gained from hand-in = 61,625,000
XP gained in total = 466,507,013 + 61,625,000 = 528,132,013

Running a solo T16 Nephalem Rift…

33,496,972,756 = XP before running the rift https://i.imgur.com/btHivCu.jpg
43,610,228,382 = XP atfer the guardian has died https://i.imgur.com/6tIsL87.jpg
619,875,008 = XP gained for handing in completionhttps://i.imgur.com/pR2vB6V.jpg
44,230,103,390 = XP after handing in https://i.imgur.com/48vi3yr.jpg

XP gained from kills = (43,610,228,382 - 33,496,972,756) = 10,113,255,626
XP gained from hand-in = 619,875,008
XP gained in total = 10,113,255,626 + 619,875,008 = 10,733,130,634

Running a solo GR90

48,390,718,833 = XP before running the GR https://i.imgur.com/ErDI3zD.jpg
67,774,193,206 = XP after the guardian has died https://i.imgur.com/dSdPAIt.jpg
23,393,882,112 = XP gained for handing in completion https://i.imgur.com/gwY4ukB.jpg
91,168,075,318 = XP after handing in https://i.imgur.com/kptMHRK.jpg

XP gained from kills = (67,774,193,206 - 48,390,718,833) = 19,383,474,373
XP gained from hand-in = 23,393,882,112
XP gained in total = 19,383,474,373 + 23,393,882,112 = 42,777,356,485

Okay, so that was all solo stuff. What happens when I invite some people to join me and I carry them through the exact same content? Well, that’s where the Strength In Numbers buff comes in which gives an extra 10% XP per player that joins the group, i.e. 2 players = 110% XP, 3 players = 120% XP, 4 players = 130% XP. However, that buff only affects the XP from kills, not the XP from hand-ins. So, let’s assume I carry three players in a group, and do the same content…

Carrying three players through a T6 Nephalem Rift

XP gained from kills = (33,435,347,756 - 32,968,840,743) * 1.3 = 466,507,013 * 1.3 = 606,459,117
XP gained from hand-in = 61,625,000
XP gained in total = 606,459,117 + 61,625,000 = 668,084,117

Carrying three players through a T16 Nephalem Rift

XP gained from kills = (43,610,228,382 - 33,496,972,756) * 1.3 = 10,113,255,626 * 1.3 = 13,147,232,314
XP gained from hand-in = 619,875,008
XP gained in total = 13,147,232,314 + 619,875,008 = 13,767,107,322

Carrying three players through a GR90

XP gained from kills = (67,774,193,206 - 48,390,718,833) * 1.3 = 19,383,474,373 * 1.3 = 25,198,516,685
XP gained from hand-in = 23,393,882,112
XP gained in total = 25,198,516,685 + 23,393,882,112 = 48,592,398,797

So, how much of an increase in overall XP gained is carrying three players compared to solo?

T6 Nephalem Rift

668,084,117 / 528,132,013 = 1.26499
So, around 26.4% increase

T16 Nephalem Rift

13,767,107,322 / 10,733,130,634 = 1.28267
So, around 28.2%

GR90

48,592,398,797 / 42,777,356,485 = 1.13593
So, around 13.5%

Sounds pretty cut and dried, doesn’t it? I must be gaining huge amounts more XP by doing this, right?

Well, except for one thing. The Strength In Numbers buff has a range, i.e. if your hero gets too far away from any of the other players in the group, the buff drops, and you’re no longer receiving the XP bonus for kills. Here’s a pair of screenshots showing this…

Stood right next to another player…

Stood a couple of screen-lengths away from another player…

So, why is this relevant? Well, when I’m giving people boosts, they can’t keep up with my hero.

In a T6 rift, when I’m giving someone a 1-70 boost, they don’t have any gear / paragon / abilities, etc, to even attempt to keep up. They stand at the entrance, and I ask them to teleport to me when I change map levels or kill the guardian, i.e. at most, I’m likely to have the Strength In Numbers buff for a screen’s worth of mobs.

In a T16 rift, when I’m giving someone a boost, they might well run after me (to pick up loot / DBs / goblin drops / whatever) but I’ll be in a speed-build, i.e. using BK swords (45% run-speed above cap) and with Sprint / Marathon (40% run-speed above cap), so they won’t be able to keep up. Again, at most, I’m likely to have the Strength In Numbers buff for a screen’s worth of mobs.

In a GR90, again it’s unlikely someone being carried will be able to keep up. They may not have gear / abilities to do so, and they’re likely to die quite a lot, so will be far behind due to resurrection timer delays. They also cannot teleport to me until the boss is dead so, once again, at most, I’m likely to have the Strength In Numbers buff for a couple of screens’ worth of mobs.

This means that if I’m carrying three players, the mobs automatically get a larger health pool but neither I, or the players I’m carrying, are gaining anything but a miniscule amount of extra XP, which comes from the first couple of screens worth of mobs. In other words, the increase to XP to my hero from carrying other people is almost zero.

Anyway…

I can run a T16 nephalem rift in 90-120 seconds. Running through a T6 rift isn’t markedly faster, because whether it’s T6 or T16, I pretty much one-shot everything anyway, so the completion time is more to do with how fast I can run through the map(s) whilst things just die around me.

Giving a level 1-70 boost takes, on average, three T6 nephalem rifts. So, let’s assume I do that for a group of three other players, that would be 3 lots of 4-man T6 rift XP. Even assuming they can stay within range of me to provide the Strength In Numbers buff (which they can’t) that would be…

3 * 668,084,117 = 2,004,252,351 XP

Now, the XP from running three solo T16 nephalem rifts would be…

3 * 10,733,130,634 = 32,199,391,902 XP

So, in the same time (i.e. three lots of 90-120 seconds) I could either run people through three T6 rifts, or run three solo T16 rifts. What’s the difference in XP there…

Three T6 4-man = 2,004,252,351 XP
Three T16 solo = 32,199,391,902 XP

32,199,391,902 / 2,004,252,351 = 16.0655377981

In other words, I’d get roughly 16 times as much XP if I spent the same amount of time solo’ing T16 rifts than boosting three people from 1-70.

Okay, what if we compare to me running GR90s? Well, I can run those solo in 2-3 minutes. That means if rifts take me 90-120 seconds, that means I could do roughly two GR90s in the same time I could do three nephalem rifts. So, again, the XP from the three 4-man T6 rifts would be…

3 * 668,084,117 = 2,004,252,351 XP

The XP from running two solo GR90s would be…

2 * 42,777,356,485 = 85,554,712,970 XP

85,554,712,970 / 2,004,252,351 = 42.68659

In other words, I’d get roughly 46 times as much XP if I spent the same amount of time solo’ing GR90s than boosting three people from 1-70.

So, by helping / carrying other people, I’m actively choosing to make less XP per time spent than if I played solo.

5 Likes
161

I wish I could give more than one like for that very extensive explanation of how massive “benefit” boosting other players gives.

162

It won’t make a difference for Prometheus though…

163

You got to give it to meteor… I always like people who prove stuff with mathematics…

164

Not everyone agrees with that…

1 Like
165

And I shall always maintain that stance.

I never really understood why people try turn something that is supposed to be entertaining through its designed random nature into something that can be controlled and predicted.

166

You claimed group play gives an advantage. You provided zero evidence. Meteorblade disprooved your claim by providing evidence.

Cases like these are situations where it is necessary to understand the underlying mechanics.

2 Likes
167

There seems to be a theme brewing in this thread…

168

With “math” meaning anything that has to do with numbers you don’t play Diablo without using it. You augment with level 80 or level 100 gems because it’s better than level 50 gems. You assess various drops in the game to see if they’re better than what you’ve already got… is 20% elemental and 4,5% crit better than 15% elemental and 6% crit.?
But if you don’t know what you’re doing you might assess wrongly - even when you think you’ve made the best choice.

1 Like
169

So playing running GRs in a group provides no advantage to each of the players in the rift? Isn’t that precisely what “Strength in Numbers” does? And even if other players are out of range, they still gain a larger advantage in Paragon gains than they ordinarily would have in Single Player.

You go right on believing that groups provide no advantage. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want, even if they are wrong.

170

If Meteor is the Einstein in this discussion maybe you’re the Frankenstein? (the doctor not the monster of course).

2 Likes
171

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the fact that Meteorblade is the one carrying other players, not the other way around. By carrying other players he is gimping his own XP gain rate which he demonstrated with math. In other words he is definitely not gaining any advantage. What instead he is gaining is a disadvantage.

Or are simply so miserably bad in maths that in your opinion 46 times more XP in pure solo play than while boosting other players provides less paragons?

Your logic (or more accurately the lack of any logic) sometimes makes me facepalm so hard I’m worried my head explodes. This is one of those cases.

2 Likes
172

There’s a massive difference between me carrying three people through content they couldn’t possibly do themselves and playing in a group where all four of us would be capable of GR90s in 2-3 minutes solo so we can equally contribute and/or split up in open maps.

You’ve seen the “advert” that I use in General Chat. I literally take anyone and everyone that responds to it that has GR keys. In almost all cases, I get respondents that have recently ding’d 70, are alts without gear, or have very low paragon, i.e. I am carrying them, and they can contribute little to nothing to the clears and are usually so far behind me that the Strength In Numbers buff isn’t active.

If I wanted to farm huge amounts of paragon, I’d be doing “Rat Runs” for trillions of XP an hour, and if I wanted an easy way to get rank 150 gems (for equipping and/or Caldesann’s Despair) then I’d be playing a zBarb. Well, I’ve never done either of those things.

I am carrying people, despite it providing almost zero benefit to my hero’s power, for one simple reason… I like helping people.

I like to believe as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. For that reason, I tend to listen a lot more to facts, evidence, maths, science, logic and reason than feelings-based arguments.

You feel like I’m gaining a huge advantage.
Maths shows you’re wrong.

3 Likes
173

And there we get to the meat of the problem.

Shall I quote that again?

That is the whole problem, isn’t it? people in this game have gotten so complacent in their need to get boosted, they have either forgotten how to do it all themselves or just never learned to do so to begin with.

That is perhaps the very core of my challenge. To do it alone. Without help.

You seem to be under the impressions that when I say you get an advantage from a group game, I mean a huge one?

Tell me. In those game where you carried others. All those 2, 3 and 4 man Greater Rifts? Did you gain any Paragon points yourself while doing so? And how do you classify that as not having had help?

174

LOL! It wasn’t Meteor who got carried.

2 Likes
175

I find it rather patronizing that you thing it’s ok to “carry” someone who is at Paragon 723 https://i.imgur.com/VIbiDAr.jpg and then go on to say that you are doing so only because “they cannot possibly do the content themselves”.

How the hell are they supposed learn how to do the content themselves if there are constantly people like you out there that will do the work for them?

I think I know the answer to my own question. Because that’s how you learned to play the game, by letting others do all the hard work for you?

You sicken me.

176

Yes, clearly I got some paragon points from carrying people.

I notice, however, that you’re conveniently ignoring the huge amount of maths where I showed that each time I was boosting people I could have been earning 16 to 42 more times XP by playing GR90s solo instead, i.e. I was choosing to earn less paragon than I could have, purely to be helpful to other people.

I classify earning less XP in a group than I could have earned solo as not receiving help.
How do you classify it?

177

Oh, wow…

That screenshot is the second one of a pair of screenshots that I embedded into the thread to demonstrate the range of the Strength In Numbers buff. Did you miss the chat box in the first screenshot? Let me embed it again…

I had asked in General Chat if someone would be willing to join my game so that I could take a screenshot of something. In the chatbox, you see the other player say “inv if needed :)”, I sent them an invite, you’ll see in the chatbox that they have entered the game, and I say in party chat “teleport to me please, then stand still”. I took a screenshot whilst standing next to them, demonstrating that the Strength In Numbers buff was in effect. Then, I ran about 100 yards North and took a screenshot showing that the Strength In Numbers buff was no longer in effect.

By the way, did you notice there were no mobs in either of those screenshots? Do you know why? That’s because I’d already cleared the map of mobs solo, prior to the other person joining, so that I wouldn’t need to worry about protecting whoever came into the game to help me by standing there so I could take a screenshot.

As soon as I had the screenshots, we both went back to town, and left party, i.e. I killed zero mobs whilst that player was in a party with me. I provided nothing to them what-so-ever other than saying thanks for helping. I did not carry them. I did not kill anything for them, or with them. Literally, they were in a party so I could take screenshots to demonstrate the range of the Strength In Numbers buff.

2 Likes
178

Your stated intent with this thread was to prove you could do something…

You actively chose not to take screenshots, even though they would prove your claim…

When you were asked to provide screenshots that would prove your claim, your response was…

I think you probably meant overestimated (i.e. you were insulting me by implying I wasn’t very smart) rather than underestimated (i.e. you realise I’m way smarter than you thought I was) here…

How smart was it for you to create a thread saying you could prove something, fail to prove it and then get upset and insult other people because you did not prove it?

2 Likes
179

Because maths and numbers are a big part of these type of games. It is in their nature. If you compare builds, you really are comparing numbers, percentages, functions, expressions, vector spaces (lol) etc… Not just diablo. But diablo is a very strong example. If you understand the mathematical function behind every mechanic then you truly understand the game. You can even improve your gameplay a lot… For me it dosn’t go against the fun that the game can offer. They are 2 different things…And maths either fun or not is probably the most powerful tool that human has ever created. I guess i am lucky cause i find entertaining both maths and games that can implement them on every turn.

1 Like