Well… the way you phrase the question suggests that you still don’t understand the game.
Moira/Brig don’t have far more forgiving kits. Again, you’re not identifying the variables and the challenges and advantages. So, your question is delivered with a false assumption. You are still assuming that Ana is less forgiving, which is a common thing to assume, but it’s not necessarily correct.
When Anas shots are landed, she delivers massive healing and on top of that, her grenade has a huge healing spike. These are clear advantages in her kit that when applied to the right situation will give massive rewards in a very forgiving way. Example, pummelling shots into a clustered team at medium range and tossing a grenade is about the most spike healing you can get in a regular kit and it’s hardly a highly skilful thing to do. You can’t conveniently overlook the advantages and then claim she’s “far less forgiving”.
The game is much more complex than these simplistic statements suggest.
I’m too smart to let the system fool me, as I know the challenges involved in each hero. You’re like a cat who’s entranced by any hero that requires aiming and you assume those are the most skilful, but that’s just because the game has fooled you by implementing other mechanics and advantages into the kit as a whole that results in a roundabout balance, again, depending on the situation.
So, I would like a support hero with lots of skill expression in the areas of mobility and ability usage with little skill expression in aiming. That is my preferred play style and it’s what I’m good at. If they designed a hero in the correct manner then it could easily be considered just as unforgiving as you assume Ana is. In effect, you can design a hero with zero aiming elements and still have it be highly skill intensive.
They kept releasing support heroes that kind of perked my interest but they all had issues for me. Moira would have tickled my fancy but they implemented her resource system as requiring tracking and balanced her kit around doing quite a lot of damage over time. So, that made her too offensive for my tastes and tracking an important part of her skill requirements. She also had little mobility which is something I like in a kit. So, I liked her resource management but I would have preferred it if they’d implemented some other way to restore her energy.
Brig would have interested me but she wasn’t a main healer and more about dealing damage which isn’t what I wanted from her. I wanted a healer who could also help out with tanking or filling in for a tank. These roles would come at the expense of her offensive capabilities, but Blizz had different plans which resulted in the DPS with a little tank/heal on the side that we have now.
My ideal support would probably be a Mercy that’s been stripped of res and given more healing output capabilities tied to ability usage in the vein of what Moira has, perhaps with a resource bar fuelled by pick ups or some other form of interesting mechanic. Or, potentially some fun utility.
Maybe they’ll release a rapid fire healer that shoots projectiles out like Orisa except they heal and deal damage. I expect there’s a decent chance of this, as Blizz seems very intent on trying to release hybrid supports that can also deal massive damage.
poke poke Psst, Blizz… not everyone wants to do that. Some people actually enjoy playing supports.
Get out of this Post please you toxic kid. Thank you. Telling a 3700 master Player that they dont understand the game does it hurt to be this arrogant?
EndOfTheLine didn’t mean that you don’t understand the game. They said that your phrasing made it sound like that.
Maybe the word “forgiving” was the wrong word for what you mean. How I see Moira, Brigitte, and Mercy is “accessible”, not “forgiving”. Each of them requires “no skill” to play them decently, making them pretty accessible to everyone. They are not “forgiving” because if you mess up, you can mess up hard.
Here comes burn from FPS veteran and silver scrub in Overwatch.
Aim heroes need everything that non-aim heroes need plus aim. This makes them more difficult to play. „The aiming Skill is a complex cognitive ability. As it calls for us to unite our visual and motoric skills, allowing for the hand to be guided by the visual stimulation. Good Eye-hand coordination is a skill that can you help winning duels more often“ The term „Skillshot“ is there for a reason.
Aim is skill, yes, but it is skill when you are shooting at small targets, not barn sized suits of armor/gorillas/gundam-centaur love child/cowboys with head hit box the size of avg. door. This game requires good positioning with at least decent aim for you to climb. Also, most “aim” heroes have random recoil patterns, which makes automatic fire RNG, not skill dependant, which leaves Widow and Ash MB2 fire and McRee only ones purely aim-skill based heroes, while Hanzo, Phara, * insert projectile hero here * are dependant on whole different skill set to begin with.
Overwatch is an official fps and with the release of ashe Blizz showed us that they didnt forget it.
Yes, it is FPS, in same sense that it is RPG, because we have levels. Overwatch is closer to 1st person MOBA with FPS element than it is to shooters. FPS games focus on gunplay with some tatical utilities to help, while OW focuses on managing cooldowns and supporting them with shooting.
Aim is an inconsistent skill. You can not perfect it. You have to practise every day to become a top aimer. Even with god aim you can be outplayed by good movement.
Aim is one of the most consistent skills there can be in FPS. It’s muscle memory after enough practice. Game sense can be off, because of bad day, ma awareness might be off, because of bad day, but aim is acquired skill that is like riding a bike, under right settings you still gonna be good at it.
There is more then tracking and flicking. A good crosshairplacement is important and anticipating the enemy hero is also very important, because ow is fast paced compared to other shooters (cs:go)
Only 3 heroes can have big enough impact with good crosshair placement, and that is not all the time. Widow cannot do enough damage to tanks even with headshot because of healers. And OW is faster than CS:GO? What? CS:GO one round is less than 5 minutes and people die in matter of few bullets in higher ranks. OW is one of the slowest games in FPS genre.
Aim heroes are healthy for competitve games. Nothing is more boring to watch than a non-aim hero comp like death ball for example
Why? You find strategy, execution and skill in heroes boring? All non-aim heroes means better comp, or better skill with heroes wins. Plain and simple - better players win.
There is no other game outthere like Overwatch
Paladins? TF2?
Good aim fascinates everyone. Its like to see a footballplayer/basketplayer doing some awesome tricks.
No, good aim is like watching people score in football or basketball. Mastering heroes to the edge of their capabilities are like seeing awesome tricks.
I would like to see more heroes like Ana, Mccree, Hanzo, Widowmaker, Ashe etc. I really dont like the far forgiving kits from Moira and Brigitte. Even Mercy is not that forgiving to play ( In the past she was but not anymore in my opinion at least!)
Sorry, what? Anna has one of the most forgiving hit boxes when it comes to healing. and if it is deathball, sometimes you just need to shoot into death ball and toss piss jar in for some extra healing. Hanzo is projectile hero, where prediction + game sense > aim. If you just click on heads with hanzo, you will have bad time and zero hits. Ash, Widow, Mcree - pure aim goodness, same with Soldier and Sombra (its either go for head or off Sombra). Also, Moira forgiving? Have you played healers? Everyone and their pets are comming after healers and with Moira, needing to be in the fray it is either you heal and TRY to avade dmg, or team wipe with you surviving and effectively throwing the game. Brig… Brig is Brig… Not as broken anymore, still my love child, it takes some skill now to be uber-effective with her, but its still too easy, imho. Mercy is most non-skill hero there is - in bad spot? Shift out of there. Low HP? Hide n corner for two seconds and you are good.
Your rank doesn’t matter. This is a matter of game design, so anyone can be right or wrong regardless of what rank they’re at. I have a masters degree in games design for what that’s worth. Oh, I also reached GM once, but admittedly that was when Mercy was “OP”
I’m not being toxic by saying you’re wrong. These are pretty basic design concepts that you’re overlooking, so from my perspective it’s like you’re saying the grass is blue. I’m going to have to point out that you’re wrong in order to move forward. It is not toxicity if I tell you you’re wrong about something, especially when I explain why in some detail.
I’ll give you an example of toxicity, if that’ll help? See, if I called you a kid, then that would be toxic.
Get out of this Post please you toxic kid. Thank you. Telling a 3700 master Player that they dont understand the game does it hurt to be this arrogant?
I dont sense irony there. If someone is toxic he can leave.
You should. Getting salty over pointing your bulldroppings and flexing with rank is ironic.
Calling someone toxic is toxic? Nice logic Even that you think that movement and ability management is on the same difficulty level with aiming is ridiculous.
Once you mastered movement and ability management you mastered them. There are few to non errors anymore compared to aiming.
Didn’t say that. I said calling someone a kid is toxic.
I did not assign a value to these categories. They will each have different levels of required skill depending upon the hero. I pointed out that they are expressions of skill, and yes, you can design kits with enough skill expression in mobility and ability usage to make them just as overall skill intensive as a hero based around aiming.
You can always improve these skills, there are sooooo many variables involved. Every single engagement is a massively complex situation. It’s not even binary. This isn’t chess. You can’t really achieve “perfection” in a game like this. You can pretty much always position better or use abilities in a better way. No one is perfect so there’s always room for improvement.
Excuse you and your toxic behaviour, but what? Movement and character knowledge in game with constant new additions of new characters, balance patches and maps is more cosistant than aim? Are you high? I pop now and then on CSGO, climb back to Master Guardian Elite no problem because i have good aim and so-so map awareness no problem. I pop into OW comp with healer (Ana, Zen, Lucio, Moira) after bigger patch without playing for couple months i get rofl stomped from Gold to Silver, and even with good aim i cannot carry with DPS because my CD management and hero expertise in DPS class is well… Crap… Because I play mainly healers and I am not too much familiar with DPS characters. So, now you tell me, if I have aim which is on par with some high masters players but have avareness of silver-gold why am i not climbing out of silver-gold to masters, but stuck in gold? By your logic i should be roflstomping people lef and right because i can click on heads.
Dont you want to understand that xpanderrs point is to emphasise that Heroes who need more mechanical skill aka aiming are more difficult to play?
In your world need moira probably the exact amound of skill like ana. I have read the whole conversation and I kindly ask you to not reply on my comment because your ego is so high, there is nothing to discuss. cya.
Just stop Endoftheline, this is factuall incorrect. Ana, brig and moira have the exact same amount of abilities.
All characters require positioning and awareness, yet Ana much more than the others, since she has 0 mobility or CC (outside of sleep dart, that has a longer CD, can be broken on damage, needs pinpoint accuracy, is a projectile etc) isn´t as great as brig stun to help her out, or unlike others.
All character game sense, every single character in the game, yet depending on the mobility, survivability or cc of a character, some aspects can be ignored. Again here Ana isn´t looking good.
Ana unlike any of the other heroes mentioned needs to aim, hitscan aim precise as well. This takes a huge amount of skill to utilize properly.
So you are telling me, when you can clearly look at the facts and see, that ana has the same and more skill aspects to constantly take care of than the other mentioned healers, which directly correlates to being harder than them, or them being easier/more forgiving, you are still able to see through the system cause you are so smart ?
This makes her high risk/high reward, all of those shots need pinpoint accuracy and are single target based, which can be blocked. Brig does in that instance a great amount of aoe healing without doing anythig but holding LMB. Moira on the other hand uses her orb and holds LMB and far outheals Ana in the scenario you mentioned, by miles in fact.
You prob could, but it would be near impossible and stupid in an FPS game, i mean even now we have no hero´s that require zero aiming at all, we only have less aiming intensive heroes or next to no aiming heroes, which all sadly very much suffers from being very easy to play nearly.
I mean no offense, but 3700 is a decent rank but with that comment you are indeed incredibly arrogant. 3700 is top 10% of the playerbase, nothing that amazing im sorry.
That is litterally the same thing, a hero being easy/accessible directly correlates to some aspect of their kit being more “Forgiving” than some other hero. In this case it is their high survivability/mobility and lack of needing to aim much at all, unlike Ana.
Soldiers first couple shots (which was buffed are also pinpoint accurate, that is why most pro soldiers don´t just hold LMB, when aiming especially at range.
Whether you like to admit it or not Hanzo requires aiming, good aiming, just because people can walk into his arrows doesn´t mean he isn´t aiming them, he is still aiming them at head height and around the characters head or in the direction he predicts them to move.
Most crit hitboxes BTW are still not very big, unlike the characters themselves, which is why Crit acc is stil a good stat to look at.
Litterally the other way around, as factually stated it is an FPS, OW focuses on shooting, while supporting that with cooldowns and utility.
Read, what he said again, it is an inconsistent skill. You cannot perfect it. As he truly states. You will always be hit with task for your muscle memory, that are completely new and unfamiliar, so you won´t always hit them. This is why the best Widowmakers in the world sit at 25-30 crit acc and 40-60% acc. Litterally half the shots go nowhere and only 1/3 of those hit the head.
Well you are quite good at showing, why people with a knowledge in game designing, doesnt actually mean they are good at balancing games
There is a reason that every game out there looks at the pro players for game balancing. Because they can show how the game looks, when played 100% optimally, what the game designers can do, is tweak the numbers and interactions, so it makes better sense or gets better balanced. Yet how would they know how to balance, if they do not know the target audience or how they perform and how the designs they make perform with these people.
If we go to definition territory, something is forgiving if it allows room for mistakes and errors. Something is accessible if it allows access to a certain thing. “forgiving” is used when describing the consequences of an action. “accessible” is used for when describing the effort of an action.
Take throwing a glass ball and a plastic ball as an example. Both have the same accessibility because you can throw both balls fairly easily. However, the plastic ball is way more forgiving as the glass ball because if you mess up and drop the ball by accident, the glass ball will shatter but the plastic ball won’t.
A hero can still be accessible for everyone but that hero might not be forgiving if you mess up. McCree’s Ultimate is the best example. It’s extremely accessible - all you need to do is look at the enemy and press the shoot button - but it shows no mercy when you mess up. Having the wrong timing and you wasted your ult.
Ana is a forgiving yet not accessible hero. Due to multiple targets, you can hit, missing the focused target isn’t that bad because you often hit another target. However, she is a sniper which requires mechanical skill.
There are 3 combinations you can do: A forgiving yet inaccessible hero, A non-forgiving and inaccessible hero, and a non-forgiving yet accessible hero.
A forgiving and accessible hero is always a terrible idea because that was basically Brigitte. Everyone could play her and you didn’t get penalized very much when you missed your shield bash, due to her survivability.
In order to make a hero less forgiving, you have to make mistakes more fatal, usually in form of counterplay potential.
Moira requires tracking skills, plus resource management and ability usage, reaction and positional awareness plus a host of other elements. I just like to break things down into three categories, aiming, ability usage and mobility. That’s obviously not an exact science, but that’s my point. It’s complicated… very complicated.
See, you call aiming “mechanical skill”, but… what is aiming? Well, aiming is moving your mouse on a flat surface and then pressing LMB at the correct time. Mobility is pressing one of the WSAD keys at the correct time, whilst taking into account all the positions of allies, enemies, projectiles ect… Ability usage is pressing things like RMB, Shift, “E” ect, depending on the character you’re playing and all the other factors.
It really does go on and on, which is the point… it’s not just “This character aim so this character require most skill”. I mean, really? Come on…
I’m really not sure why pointing out how the game works in reality equals me having an ego to you.
I know “so you are saying” is an infamous line that might kill whole discussions but you are basically saying that each hero should require the same amount of overall skill, right?However, as far as I understood, that overall skill can be distributed in different skill types, from mechanical skill to cognitive skill.
It should be like distributing a set amount of stat points into different stats, right?
Yes, and there in lies the reason why this debate has no true answer. That is because these forms of skill expression cannot be assigned a numerical value that can be compared to the values of another hero. That is, unless you decide to assign a value, though that value will be arbitrary and based upon opinion. There are simply too many variables.
I’m not trying to assign values so that I can say “overall” this hero requires more skill than this hero. It is rather to remind the debate that every single ability or mechanic is unique to each hero and thus requires a different amount of skill. For example, you simply cannot apply the notion that Mercy and Ana have the same mobility skill requirements. This should go without saying, but here we are.
To use your example, clearly some people in this thread are assigning more value to aim related forms of skill expression than other areas, which is fine. What isn’t fine is to make the mistake of overlooking all the extra challenges involved in other areas for other heroes.
The problem is, I know the variables but to start talking about them all would create massive posts, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to at least acknowledge that they’re there. Or, is that me having an ego? I dunno, feels more like common sense to me.
Actually did a “DMG only moira” all day today.
People hated the living hell out of me.
Why aren’t this people on the forum…
Game might get better if they joined.
We cant use absolute numbers, obviously, but we can think about it in a conceptual level.
I agree with you that mechanical skill shouldn’t be more important than other skill types. Overwatch is an asymmetrical hero shooter so gameplay diversity should be implied.
Basically, each hero should be equally challenging but in different ways.
does it hurt to be this arrogant?
Oh, I also reached GM once, but admittedly that was when Mercy was “OP” 
Even that you think that movement and ability management is on the same difficulty level with aiming is ridiculous.
