It’s more like:
Gain 100 SR during 3 games and lose 125 SR with one loss XD
ME 3350 SR last season, now 3000. as i’ve said to you multiple times, i do not play role que as its even more rng madness. i have played about 6 games of role, last season… now i dont even have role que rank.
we are not the same rank at all.
yup. sure. the 2 metric systems works in tandem to make sure the season rank is a diminishing return effect on the number of games you play.
Yes i know, i’ve said as much.
the current rank system is the birthmother of all toxicity in this game. if only blizzard could get that into their heads then we would all be able to enjoy overwatch and the game would have an audience and a given seat at the big table.
its not “harder” to lose sr, its easier.
SR have a set factor of 1 magnitude higher that then gets added to a “personal” player metrics. Ofcourse this rank system then has 1 magnitude higher factor of “who you team with”.
and no, the equally reverse does not happen, in a real world scenario.
is alot harder to group up with 5x random people who are all willing to change heros, be on coms and all in all, giving everything to win the game. = its alot harder to gain sr.
this mathematical system / the diminishing returns x games, does not reach equilibrium until you’r rank is smack down in the middle of the middle. until equilibrium, it cannot determine “personal skills level”.
Also, no one seem to know what the “golden” player metrics are???
As such, we might not be able to “exploit it”, but we cant tell if its a fair essement of “skills” either.
And obviously you can never thrust blizzard to deliver… but it don’t matters much?
those “player metrics” are only 1-10 points added to that +25 points?
… but somehow seem to be -30 when you lose (like it some how is your fault that the rank system set you up with bad immature eggs, that only wants a quick game to troll around solo in)
I’m pretty sure SR and MMR is all reset at season end?
but you know… obviously its a heavily flawed rank system.
It pretty much is good only for breathing toxicity and unwillingness to cooperate as a team.
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MMR stays the same through seasons, that’s why when you win all your placement matches to start the new season it generally puts you in the same rank you were in previous season, but when a pro does it they get the highest rank they possibly can get through placement.
which is diamond i think that they then have to grind a bit to get where they usually are but it takes them not that many games compared to most other players, not because they tend to win more but because they gain more SR per match than other accounts because their MMR is that high.
to remind you, you gain 100 SR per win on a fresh account, but after those initial honeymoon matches it starts to diminish greatly.
i think on average when the MMR is favoring you, you gain about 10-20 more SR than you can lose, meaning if the MMR is higher than your placement you will lose on average 20 SR and win 40 SR per match, and it can also be the opposite if your MMR is a lot lower then you will simply win 20 SR and lose 40 SR.
however with increasing ranks it starts to require you to win more matches per ratio to keep your rank which is why SR starts to diminish also when you reach a higher rank, hence why you would need about 70% winrate or so to keep your rank at GM.
so in the end it’s all a matter of consistency and volume of games rather than play by play from each match.
it tends to favor people who play a lot no matter if their skill is the same as those who play only on weekends for 2-3 hours, but only if their MMR is higher than what’s reflected in their SR.
No. consistency and volume = lower sr.
real world scenarios does not translate to the theorycrafted rank system.
The correctness of the rank-system depends entirley on what level the player is compared to the rest of the playerbase, which initself is riddles with flaws in a gameworld that has 32 different “skillsets”.
the last 10 games i won/lost 50/50. at the start of this 10 games period i was at around 3050sr, now im 2977. next game, if i win, will put me at 2995-3000.
But I had 3001 prior to this last lost game.
so there is a diminishing return on season rank, this is something i experience every damn season.
and to be fare, the only thing that has changed in the last 10 games, are my teammates.
thus its a rng factor that introduce diminishing returns.
long story short; the rank system does not work.
1.If someone claims that it does work, they atleast cannot claim that the sr is tied to personal game-skill.
2. please do adress how the rank system breaths toxicity and unwillingness to be a teammate.
3. please do adress how the rank system structural flaws produce a game that is a bad joke when it comes to e-sports.
no there’s a diminishing return because your MMR is lower than your SR and you gain less SR for wins.
you can’t say 10 wins 50/50 like it’s any meaningful data, you need about 100 to a thousand matches or even more to have a more accurate read out due to the nature of the game because it is very randomized but still maintains this “50/50” nature, you can very easily go 20 matches and lose each one and the very next day have 20 matches and win each one.
also as a part of a whole the game will judge you based on the skill of all others playing the game trying to put you at a SR range where your skill is at on a constant basis.
in short the reason why you’re not climbing is because your stats doesn’t reflect the skill you should have in order to climb, it can be the amounts of time you die per match, the accuracy rating and so on that is keeping your MMR lower in which you will only get diminishing return.
and there’s a certain point at about GM levels of rank where you have to outmatch the MMR by having a really high winrate to keep your rank but that does not hold true for ranks below GM unless your MMR is fighting against you.
and if you’ve had your account for a long time and it thinks it has pin-pointed your MMR at a certain range it will try to keep you there in which you have to really improve a lot and win a lot more games to prove to the MMR that it should be higher in order for you to climb again.
so out of 1000 games you’ve been at let say 2500 SR range, trying to climb you’ll have to have about 70% winrate over possibly 200 games or so in order for it to start increasing your SR gain again.
i really don’t care if you think it’s fair or not, but this is how it works.
why it works like this is a better question though, and i think it has to do with preventing somethings.
it’s actually quite a complex matchmaker compared to what we usually see, usually what we see is simply that you win exactly an exact amount of points every single time and lose exactly the same amount for losing.
but since it’s a team game and in team games you have unreliable statistics because you can be carried by a team inflating your score or deflate your score, so i guess it’s there to put people at their actual skill level depending on in-game performance over a large period of time instead of small streaks of luck or misfortune.
and that’s why i think it’s like that.
if anything else you’d have to take it up with the devs of why the matchmaker is the way it is.
farness update: i won, and i’ve got to 3001 sr, again (3 gold medals,1 silver… ofc) … then i played again and lost… down to 2976. (from 2977)
So yeah, sr has a diminishing return(even if you get all gold medals… and by >game metrics< perform top in your team)…
fyi 11 games is not my complete “data set”, its actually 100-1000 games, across multiple season. the last 11 games was just proof of concept.
also you should stop explaining how its all good becouse my mmr is lower then sr.
I did not pick my opponent, the system did. I did not pick my teammates either.
thus, mmr vs sr rank-system is flawed af. As i’ve explained multiple times.
stop stating the obvious as a respons to me saying that the “obvious” is flawed af.
Yeah lets talk about this mmr “skill rating” more, i doubt that can get out of hand and become a total offtopic discussions, with no way to know if anyone is correct or not.
like my accuracy rating? does that count accuracy to to shields? Does it subtract accuracy that ends up only feeds the opponents healer ult?
i know damage to shields dont count towards damage done… but still, i take great pride in applying pressure to tanks, without feeding opponents healing meters… i often burn down the shields AND maintaining gold damage.
Does dieing-count to flanking and dieing, while keeping the opponents busy healing eachother …while the rest of the team kill everyone else that defend the mission objective?
basically what you are saying is;
beeing a teamplayer could mean that performin on a team level = diminishing returns on my “personal” SR, becouse team-plays makes my MMR rank lower…
Yes. Ok i got it.
as i’ve been saying all along.
the ranksystem breads toxcitiy and a playerbase that are inherently unwilling to be a teamplayer, becouse you lose rank beeing a teamplayer.
like i understand, i dont care much about what you think either…no offense…
BUT, atleast i m stating that: “this is how it works” is bad for the entire game, where’s you just state “this is how it works”.
yeah, and having a complex system is just bad. Even if a complex system do end up working, its still really bad architecture. they are not cost efficient and are hard to work with.
for the most part thou complex (unnatural/manmade) system does NOT even work.
gold medals don’t count in a game with sub-par players, look at your overall stats and someone who is in ranks higher than you and see how you stack up that way.
widow is infamous for this with the accuracy rating and the amount of headshots they hit and the accuracy of that.
all deaths matters because you don’t have to die needlessly to your teams misplays.
yes being a teamplayer and going along with your team can mean that you are going to be statistically be worse and therefore have lower MMR, it’s in a way an anti-team play system in that sense.
but it’s not completely team independent either as you need your team to boost your stats because you’ll probably have worse stats if you don’t utilize your teams presence in the match, you can use your team as sacrificial pawns for your own stats if they play badly.
but pay also attention when the MMR have pegged you at a certain rank you have to have a much higher win rate in order to climb to basically persuade the MMR to start increasing your SR gain again.
to me it’s a system that works independent of team and explosive matches that take the long route around to pin you where your rank should actually be, so you can’t really blame the random teams or what happens in individual matches but you can rely on the long term consistent stats of your own play to put you in the rank you should belong in.
it’s a way to circumvent the crazyness of this game that makes literally no sense to base SR around.
should you base SR around the fact that you happened to have a good team or a bad team?
should you base your SR around the fact that the enemy had a “smurf” that stomped you or a “smurf” that carried you?
should you base your SR around the fact that there was one lucky play using an ultimate that made the game a win or a loss?
obviously not, hence why the system is setup as it is mostly using your stats as a barometer for how much SR you gain and with a MMR that is trying to zero you in on a skill range where you will get 50/50 match ratio where you will get challenging games but not too challenging that it becomes unwinnable.
now you can argue that it is bad, i’m not gonna disagree or agree with anything about that.
but you would have to think about what would happen if they didn’t have this sort of system in place, now imagine your rank is determined wholly around circumstantuality?
only based around the teams you do get and how well you do with those teams?
i just think people aren’t really that aware how much their stats actually matter in climbing in ranks and blame their misfortune on others misplays and such that really doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of how the matchmaker is actually set up to function.
If consistency and volume means lower SR for you… then that means you are too high to begin with.
Everything returns to its level when you play enough.
stupid question
130 answers
lmao
Yeah, only ones carrys me is me, cheaters or pro player smurfs.
yeah death matters, some more then others. me baiting two healers so they entire team is without heals so my team can cap easy… should of course matter, alot. But it don’t, becouse as oddly as this season rank is set-up, towards team matter most… team plays does not.
as ive said, “complex” systems are not good systems.
then gold medals should be removed.
thats how bad players rise in rank, it inflates their ego then obviously they get very emotional very fast when they hit a “wall”. = alot more trash talk and toxicity.
tl;dr. the current ranking system benefits bad players alot more then good players.
what you fail to grasp that the “long route” is filled with random people that are going to affect you and your “long term MMR” in ways that i can tell you, and ways that i cannot tell you…
as neither of us are a major in “internet game mindset and emotional attachment towards teammates and winning a random game on the internet”. we cannot even begin to unbox this subject.
tl;dr
the MMR is the slow and laggy version of the SR.
big brain people that generally doesn’t understand life, psychology and/or this game, has come up with it.
micro tl;dr. complex system is always worse then simple systems.
[quote=“Renegade-21659, post:132, topic:19761”]
should you base your SR around the fact that the enemy had a “smurf” that stomped you or a “smurf” that carried you?[/quote]
obviously smurf account should be linked in blizzard service’s and there should be an option to even allow them in your own game.
its technically possible and very doable.
as smurfing is by the very definition of the word “cheating” just that, its cheating.
and it messes with the whole concept of having a rank system, and it “upset” the ranksystem when these smurf accounts move thru the ranks, as they are so many and a steady flow of them, they upset the mmr too.
now you might not agree that smurf account is cheating… ( but i dont care)…
regardless, the smurf accounts should not be able to affect non-smurf accounts rank.
Yes totally… it requires skills to get lucky.
call it intuition/ 6th sense… or just plain old luck.
its apart of any competition/life/karma/whatever and its a quantifiable measurement sorta … anyways, luck belongs in the ranking system.
yeah i understand the theory of it all… but what you and blizzard fail to relies that the theory does not hold up in reality.
Seriously… let me put it in a short sentence.
if the rank system where good, people would not feel “cheated” and get emotional about losing a game/rank.
how do i know people feel cheated you ask…?
well… just read the ingame chat
you seems to think i want to get ridd of MMR…
i want to get rid of SR. I do not want my rng-team decide if i should lose or gain points.
I do not want to hear and read others emotional suffering / or break myself,
becouse 1 teammember of either side decided they want to “soft throw” the game.
I guess i want MMR to be the only skill rating in the game, but im unsure … as i do not know what “player metrics” that decide this rank.
does talking in coms even get you a higher mr/sr? it should… but i bet it does not.
-… thats cus comples system is bad…
becouse when you start add complex stuff, you kinda need to balance it out with other compex stuff… etc etc etc to infinity.
once again, the majority of the SR that get shifted comes from winning or losing.
that is a solid 25-100 points of the rank point shifting.
the “mmr” stats only affect 1-10 points.
unsure of the numbers, it depends on what metal you got going on your profile… but regardless of “rank role” its a very low number, unless you lose the game ofcourse…
(i played tank and was gold kills, damage and objective time… yeah you can imagine the team i was on… we lost the game… i lost 25 and then +35 points in “mmr” additive penalties.)
Having a gold medal doesn’t mean you played well… just means you got more credit for things than someone else.
i got more credit for damage done, so i did more damage than enyone else, same with kills and same with objective kills and objective time.
end of having this offtopic disruption, about if medals mean anything or not (they dont, but they still mean i did better then all the rest… so they should mean something)
Well done on doing more.
But was more 30k dmg… or 3k dmg…
Context means more than the medal colour.
“Better than the rest” isn’t necessarily true. As Hog you could feasibly get silver heals… could that be because 1 healer wasn’t doing anything… or were you just healing yourself when you could of let the supports do it for faster ults. (Their ults will be more important than yours).
in all contex of the across the board of all kind of matches.
having gold means my playtime achieved more and stronger then my teammates.
i had the best efficiency/hr on the team.
I get what your trying to shift this into, and you might be right, if you were dicussing someone else claim that their “gold medal” matters alot…
but no, not on me,. im very active on coms i do ccall outs i do tactics i do alot. Im not “feeding for a gold medal” as you suggest that iu might do.
end of this disscusion.
while i do agree that somethings are dumb, because teamwork in a teamplay game should be a part of your skillset and a reason why you should gain rank.
but that’s not a thing and it does affect everything in this game even to the point how people treat each other, right now people are completely disregarding each other and view each other as obstacles more so than brothers in arms which just spells disaster for teamplay and fun i think.
but really i think OW shot themselves in the foot by having multiple roles and ultimates in the game to begin with so i don’t think they could have made the game any better than what it currently is.
took a while for me to realize that before i eventually jumped ship.
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This is true.
But playing better than your team mates, does not mean you are playing better than the average for your rank. Which you need to do consistently to climb.
If your team is having a bad game and you only slightly out perform them, you will get gold medals… but being slightly better than bad isn’t very good.
Being “active” on comms is great, that is a very good start. But being the rank you are in, I doubt they are the most helpful comms, but that would require me to play with you to see.
+1
and thats all becouse of the current rank system. im sorry that you fail to see the problem and think that its “not perfect, but it is working” - its not working… not at all.
its an utterly bad system that needs to go.
also fyi; im now down to 2850 rank from +3000
you know why?
Becouse i have gotten teamed up with throwing 2-stacks in 4 or 5 games in a row. They have been completely toxic and trash talked (even before the game has started).
you see, my skills has made me go -+ and beeing somewhat stable at around 3000k pts… Then the ever “statistical truth” with bad teammates eventually come around… and i’ve now lost 150pts.
and we all know that you need to be extremley lucky to get good teammates to offset the bad ones… in reality, i will never win 4-5 in a row AND earn my points back. Thats just not gonna happen.
This rank system has a >real< diminishing returns on rank.
nothing you can say or theorize about, on how the rank system “actually works”… and “you are in your real rank” blablabal… im just to oblivious to know it. bla bla bla…
No.
1.the rank system does not work.
2. becouse of 1, the game gets toxic.
3. becouse of 1, the game is not an serious e-sport.
Sure my “bad eggs” of team mates that internetbully peopple into leaving games… they will get banned eventually, on that one account they played on… if they have other accounts they can still play and “ruin the game” for others/myself , again.
AND its not like i get my points back once the system has found out that a player hard-throw/soft-thrown/ beeing a very toxic and abusive teammate that internetbully people into leaving the games…
same goes for players that are busted for cheating.
the rank system does not give back rank points to victim of abuse.
(yet another way the rank system is so much fail).
you see how a “complex” system needs to further develop into beeing more complex and complex??
complex systems are NOT fair or good. or easy to work with.
as evident of this die’ing game.
thats a lie and you know it by now.
i need to play better then my teammates… and i also need to get grouped up with team mates that are non-toxic and willing to play as a team, which has always been “hard” but in this dieing game its an impossibility if not premade groups.
The adjustments to the standard +/- 25 SR for winning or losing are based on your performance against others at your SR… not the players in your match.
The medals are lovely. And will boost your in match ego… but they are not very good at painting a picture of what is going on.
i’m sure you’ll come back to 3000sr range again, but there is a chance that the pool of players is lowering and it’s likely it’s the lower ranked people that’s leaving which makes it so your mmr is dropping due to that which could make your level of skill considered lower as a result.
but meh, i lost all faith in overwatch as a game so i really don’t care and i realized one universal truth to all games atleast for me, rank don’t matter, skill don’t matter, it has no bearing on my enjoyment of the game, it’s all about fun, if i don’t find it fun i just won’t play.
i can have fun being the worst player in a game, i can have fun not knowing my rank etc.
honestly i think those things have really spoiled the fun of just sitting down and playing for many people thinking that those things matter at all.
it’s a big reason for why not many players play fighting games anymore because they don’t want to suck or think they have to have a certain level of skill to find enjoyment with it before it starts to be fun which honestly couldn’t be further from the truth.
and as such i really don’t care if a rank system is fair or not in terms of points, all that matters is that the matches are somewhat balanced and the people i play with are fun to play with and the game itself is fun to play.
and you can probably guess pretty quickly why i don’t play OW anymore.
and honestly i don’t think OW is dying because of the matchmaking system, i think it’s dying from a poorly constructed game that have made people unreasonably hostile for no reason.
a very evident proof of this is the dividing camps between the roles and the hostility between them.
but in any case to ask you this, how do you feel about your opponents, do you feel they are at your skill level or higher or lower?
like are you stomping them individually? or vice versa or do you feel it’s about even?
because honestly teams in of itself can be a hit or miss a lot of the times but as far as i’ve noticed, most of the time i’ve felt that my enemies have been about on par with me, sometimes honestly i’ve felt that they have been a bit better than me because they are able to pull off things or do certain strats i don’t know or able to do.
but yeah.
i’ve said this for a long time, i don’t think overwatch is really that serious of a competitive game and it really shouldn’t be taken like that either, the reason being is that you don’t see people naturally gravitating to forming groups or teams to reach the top spots of rank in a team based game.
in any case, if i were you i would stop worrying about ranks and points or the matchmaker in general and worry more about what kind of teammates you are getting on a consistent basis.
lie more pls. the ±25 sr is based on my team’s performance, im a minority in my teams performance. Yet that ± 25 is a majority in the SR gained/lost.
MY adjustment based on my skills, are a minority… and that is based on the players in the match. both my team and the opponents.
gold medals might make a difference in my adjustment, it might not.
it a secret kept by blizzard.
not likely, im not even trying anymore. And i will never try again as long as SR is team based rank.
just like the rest of the populus, i will herby treat ranked as qp.
bla bla bla… excuses upon excuses to justify this bad rank system.
yeah… i see people beeing internet bullyed to leave games, due to a team performance rank… every day.
this is now also why i will leave both text and voice chat, while i play qp games… err sorry, i meant ranked games.
i tried to change the system and the system changed me. im done in this forum.
Long story short…
Blizzard develop good games, then they are very very extremely bad at beeing game masters, so long story even shorter… blizzard is not a good game developer.
u want fun you go to other games then blizzard games.