10-Man Mythic Raiding – The Case for Bringing It Back (and Doing It Right)

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

Hi Blizzard,

As a long-time raider, I want to offer feedback that I believe echoes the sentiment of a large portion of your playerbase: it’s time to reconsider 10-man Mythic raiding—with proper tuning this time.

1. 20-Man Mythic is Burning Out Guilds

Right now, Mythic raiding is locked to 20 players. That made sense for encounter balance and high-end competition, but in reality, maintaining a 20-player roster in 2025 feels like managing a small business. It’s recruitment hell, roster management, attendance tracking—it’s exhausting.

Many guilds are quietly falling apart because of this—not because they lack skill or passion, but because the format is just unsustainable for smaller communities.

And I can say from personal experience: I know tons of players who could easily form a stable 10-player team. These are tight-knit groups ready to raid Mythic, but the format gatekeeps them completely.

2. Cataclysm Classic Proves the Demand for Smaller Raids

Look at Cataclysm Classic right now—10-man raids are more popular than 25-man, especially among casual and midcore players. Why?

  • Easier to organize and maintain
  • Stronger group cohesion and communication
  • More forgiving on scheduling and burnout

Yet top-end guilds still prefer 25-man for loot quantity and rankings. That’s fine—it shows that both formats can coexist.

However, we all know that in retail Cataclysm, 10-man and 25-man weren’t balanced properly. The difficulty tuning was inconsistent and created drama. So I’m not saying “just bring it back as-is”—I’m saying, bring it back with modern encounter design and proper tuning.

You have the tools now. Boss mechanics are more flexible, and your tuning approach is smarter than ever. You could absolutely offer a Mythic experience that scales well to both 10 and 20 players—or at least support parallel paths.

3. New Players Are Struggling to Get In

As someone who’s tried bringing new friends into WoW, I’ve seen another growing issue: the onboarding for new players is brutal.

They want to be good—but:

  • They’re hit with complicated rotations,
  • Dozens of recommended addons and weak auras,
  • And hours of research just to not be a liability.

It’s overwhelming. They leave before they ever get to the fun. The barrier isn’t the gameplay—it’s the layers of prep that shouldn’t be necessary just to feel competent.

If we want to grow this game and keep it alive long-term, we need to make endgame content more accessible—not easier, but cleaner and less punishing for new players trying to engage with it.

:white_check_mark: Summary of What We’re Asking

  • Bring back 10-man Mythic raiding, properly tuned and supported alongside 20-man.
  • Support smaller, sustainable guilds that want to raid seriously without building a corporate roster.
  • Use lessons from Cataclysm Classic to guide development, but fix the tuning disparity this time.
  • Make the game easier to step into, not by nerfing difficulty, but by reducing the external clutter and expectation overload.

There’s still something truly special about raiding in WoW. Let’s make sure more people can experience it—without burning out or giving up before they even get started.

Thank you,

1 Like
2

Believe me that they tried. I was there, in WotlK and Cata when all this drama unfolded.

You cant even balance out a “patchwerk” fight between 10 and 20 man. I can tell you the drama of the day, especially when Blizzard was much more “communicative” about this.

So in a “patchewerk” boss it should be easy to balance out 10 man and 25 man (20 man in our case).

But it wasent. 20 people means 20 raid buffs. Or having the possibility to run certain specs double. Basically, to simplify not be lengthy about this: 20 man == 20 raid buffs. 10 man == 10 raid buffs. And 10 buffs missing.

So blizzard tried tuning. And the result? It either forced very strict comps for certain bosses in 25 man, or for 10 man.

So 10 man progression guilds not only had to recruit 10 people. But had to recruit 10 people with multiple toons to switch around the comp as needed. Or required a 20 man roster for a 10 man raid.

I am just underlying some of the issues they had.

Well… My PoV is that there are difficulties missing from Heroic to Mythic, and that is a significant factor in this.

If we were to do an analogy with M+ that is more “streamlined” then currently raids are: A +8 (heroic) straight to a +15 (mythic) with nothing in between.

I dont raid. And I dont raid because of that reason basically. Once I clear heroic in like 1 month the “next step” is to have the dedication you are underlying. And having just 50% of that dedication is not enough apparently. So it would be nice to have something “50% easier” Mythic but “50% harder” than heroic. If it makes sense.

3

are you mad? recruitment and player retention i guilds is awful atm too many guilds not enough players and you want to make it worse? no thanks, i dont want 10 and 25 man back heck we could ditch a difficulty and itll work just fine.

ditching mythic for the catclysm formula will just give the exact same effect as it did when cata launched lots of big guilds dissolved in to 2-4 separate 10 man guilds, we had guild hoppers all over the place its was recruitment madness and a nightmare because you needed to keep track of the guild hoppers

4

I get the concern, but honestly, the current 20-man Mythic model is already killing guilds.
Recruitment is a nightmare, burnout is everywhere, and smaller communities just can’t keep up.

A 10-man Mythic option wouldn’t make things worse—it would give those smaller, tight-knit groups a way to actually survive.
Right now, tons of people want to raid seriously, they just don’t have 19 others. That’s not bad leadership—that’s a format problem.

Yes, Cataclysm had issues—but that was 2010. Blizzard has way better tools now for tuning and balancing fights.
And let’s not forget: the real issue back then was unequal loot between 10 and 25-man. If tuning and rewards are equal, that drama goes away.

Also, Classic shows us that 10-man is still more popular than 25-man for a reason—people want smaller group content.
Why not give them the option and let guilds pick the format that works for them?

At this point, not giving players that choice is doing more harm than good.

5

Totally get where you’re coming from—I was there too during WotLK and Cata, and I remember the drama around 10 vs 25 man balance very clearly.

You’re right that back then, raid buffs and utility were heavily tied to specific specs, and 10-mans often lacked key tools, which made tuning fights a nightmare. The patchwerk-style fights revealed just how different 10 and 25 could feel.

But here’s the thing: that era is long gone.

In modern WoW:

  • Buffs are mostly standardized across roles and classes.
  • Spec design is more flexible, and most buffs are no longer locked to one specific spec.
  • Class stacking is discouraged by design, and most fights are tuned around not requiring the “perfect” comp.
  • Blizzard already does difficulty scaling (Flex) for Heroic and Normal, and they do it well.

So yes, it was a valid issue—in 2010. But today? Blizzard absolutely has the systems and tech to tune Mythic encounters for both 10 and 20, especially if it’s supported from the ground up.

Also, forcing 20-man raids in the name of “balance” is backfiring. Guilds are bleeding players because they can’t realistically manage 20-man rosters anymore. We’re not asking for perfect parity—we’re asking for a format that lets more people actually raid at the level they want.

Give us the option. Tune it smartly. Let players choose how they want to raid—that’s how you keep guilds alive in 2025.

Totally agree with you—and honestly, that’s exactly what I was getting at too.

There’s just too big a leap from Heroic to Mythic. It’s like going from a +8 straight to a +15 in M+. Most players aren’t scared of difficulty—they’re just overwhelmed by the jump in commitment, logistics, and the “you must be this sweaty to enter” energy.

That’s why I think a 10-man Mythic option could help bridge that gap. It gives smaller groups and semi-serious players a real path forward—harder than Heroic, but more manageable than organizing a full 20-man team.

It’s not about making the game easier—it’s about lowering the social and logistical barrier, so more people can stay engaged with endgame content.
Well… My PoV is that there are difficulties missing from Heroic to Mythic, and that is a significant factor in this.

If we were to do an analogy with M+ that is more “streamlined” then currently raids are: A +8 (heroic) straight to a +15 (mythic) with nothing in between.

I dont raid. And I dont raid because of that reason basically. Once I clear heroic in like 1 month the “next step” is to have the dedication you are underlying. And having just 50% of that dedication is not enough apparently. So it would be nice to have something “50% easier” Mythic but “50% harder” than heroic. If it makes sense.

6

Flexible Mythic raiding is the answer i Think. It already exists when it comes to normal/HC. And it would actualy Be good as you could have 10 man raiding back or Even 30 man Mythic if you have more players in the roster. But they are doing good Job With rading This expansion They brought Back The ICC style Raid buff for example, Raid renown To reward you for just doing raid Every weak you get some small reward. So Flexible Mythic Rading or 10 man mythic Is possible in the future. Game Had It In the past When Heroic Was Highest Difficulty and people loved it. I myself Raided In small casual 10man Heroic guild And enjoyed it.

7

I disagree with this statement. Reasons:

You think they are, because class diversity is larger. For example, Arms warrior back in WotlK was a meme in PvE. Its was the “pvp” spec for warriors if that makes sense. Now you have both fury and arms that are “playable” (not necessarily top dps) in PvE.

So that gives the impression that there are more sources of “battle shout”. But in reality, there is not. It’s still a warrior thing. You still need 1 warrior. And we can extrapolate that same concept for all other raid buffs that havent changed since WotlK. Devotion aura, Mark of the Wild… ect… And we got new ones that did not exist. Because Monks did not exist, which remain class specific.

So I would argue that today, if anything, is even worse than in 2010.

If that is the case, then you have a TON of trouble with 10s. Because you will be, by design, be missing a lot of the advantages class diversity provides.

So then you have to nerf the difficulty of 10 man to match. And by doing so, you have to also nerf the rewards, otherwise you dis-incentivize 20 man. But then by giving lower rewards, you disincentivize 10s. Its a catch 22 situation. The exact issue they had in WotlK.

They do it well because the content is nerfed enough to accommodate flex. The highest difficulty needs to be tuned so precisely that flex simply wont work.

I agree with this statement. But I think 10 man is not the solution to it.

IMO the solution is to add more difficulty tiers between heroic and Mythic. The difference between a heroic guild and a “normal” mythic guild is stark.

The first will, on average, clear the raid in 1 or 2 months. And the mythic one will spend most of the patch progressing. And most will not even get to CE by the time S3 rolls around.

So IMO there has to be something in-between clearing heroic in 1 or 2 wipes. Or spending a whole season with 500 wipes to a particular boss.

I still believe that adding more difficulty tiers helps with this. Because from my experience as an Ex GM of a progression guild… the issue is not recruitment but retention.

Basically. There is no need to recruit anyone, if nobody from your 25 person roster leaves. But they do. There is some degree of “attrition” that needs to be replaced.

So IMO the #1 reason for this attrition is the lack of progress. If a guild is wiping 400 times on Stix… there is a rational option to simply leave the guild, and move to one that already cleared Stix. And that process drains the guild of the best players. And this snowballs out of control to a full disband.

So basically. Give people other options other than: Wipe 400 (or more) times every single day you play wow… or… leave the guild. Well… maybe progression dosent need to be measured in wipes. Maybe there is some other way that hides the “400 wipes” in some fasade that dosent seem so daunting.

IMO it would work, because the way you present things changes people’s attitude towards it.

8

I think 10man mythic is great in theory, in practice, not so much.

As some of us who were there in Vanilla, TBC, Wrath and cata where they messed around with this, a lot.

It simply doesn’t work.

There are 13 different classes in the game currently.

In a 20man setting there’s a decent chance every class is present.

In a 10man raid you’re missing 3 no matter what.
Does that mean bliz can’t design fights around raid groups having access to gateway?

God forbid we need 2 gateways, at that point your 10man raid roster would be 2 tanks, 2 healers and 2 warlocks. with the rest of the DPS fighting for the last 4 spots.

While I would love 10 man mythic raiding, I don’t think it’s possible to balance in a way that makes it ok. And every time blizzard adds a new class, it becomes even more difficult to ever balance in a decent way.

9

The problem is when you start looking at design intent for mechanics / tuning margins at a mythic level you realise a lot of fights simply don’t function as intended at different group sizes. Some examples of why.

Geometry: Princess Kyveza is a fight designed extremely heavily around exactly 5 people + a tank getting a debuff at the same time.

Space management: Spread mechanics, and puddle mechanics get notably easier with less people.

Healing cooldowns: Fights aren’t just designed around an amount of hps required but an amount of cooldowns being available to cover big moments.

Responsibility allocation / soaks: Fights often assign players to do things and then not allow them to do them again for a long period of time. Most obvious recent example being sprocketmonger.

Random mechanics overloading individual players: bandit for example puts both the puddle drop debuff and fire debuffs on random players. Both of these debuffs require cooldowns / mitigation to handle (Movement for puddle, Dr for fire dot). The less people you have the more often the same person gets targeted, and they likely won’t have as much to deal with that.

1 Like
10

my gm and my self are the only officers in the guild i am i and we did some research as it stands currently 13% of the guilds in the game are dead as there isnt enough ppl in the recruitment pool to get a team together but if you drop to 10 man the amount of guilds in the game would increase but the amount of “dead guilds” due to the lack of recruitable players wouldnt see a decrease

11

None of the factors you mention are things that can’t be overcome.

Will it be perfect? No.

Will it be a huge improvement on where we are now? (imo) yes. It will open up challenging content to people who prefer smaller groups again.

The time spent raiding in MoP was hands down the best time I had in wow. Sure the balance wasn’t perfect and people whined about it. But the wow population will whine about anything anyway.

I’ll never forget (or forgive) one of their reasons for this. And it was so unique class utility can be showcased in fights. The next raid the only example of this was MC in blastfurnace, probably one of the worst raid fights ever to exist. Like, really?

12

Yes to 10 player mythic raids. Enjoyed it a lot in Mists of Pandaria.

13

I 100% agree with you. MoP was hands down the most fun I’ve ever had in this game. Raiding with 10 people, where everyone knew each other and we really pushed as a team — it was just an amazing experience. I’ve played 10-man myself and I honestly only see the positives.

I don’t care if it’s not perfectly balanced or “ideal” in theory — it’s simply more fun. And I genuinely believe that if they brought it back, the game would become more popular again. Not everything needs to be flawless on paper to be a great experience in practice.