dpses think that surviving is a tank problem, if a tank die it’s his fault, they dont know that I can’t tank 15 +12 mobs without them chaining mass cc and chain interrupts on specific mobs
You obviously have the right to continue to push if you wish, but the game has steadily transformed into a heavily competitive e-sport and if it continues having no limits the division between players and the toxicity will become akin to that of League, DOTA, CS etc. I honestly don’t think this is the vision the developers have for WoW.
Above all it’s an MMO and the e-sport min/maxing mentality, and the obsession associated with them is heavily damaging the spirit of community.
Wrong. There is 0 correlation between Mythic 0 which never had a timer to begin with, and the M+ squish. Why do you think both Tyrannical and Fortified are applied at +10? The developers are making it obvious they have introduced a soft cap at +10 and only a small percentage will be able to get past that. Personally I am fine with this. If you really want to push past +10 then you are still allowed to do so, but the soft cap at +10 will make it marginally more difficult to push beyond that to motivate you to eventually set a limit and start other activities.
Supply and demand.
With game being ultra challenging its nuatural pugs demands are crazy and only about ultra meta specs
I don’t know why you want to push your e-sports agenda here. It has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
M+ is infinitely scalable. It dosent matter where the pros sit at, a +15, a +22, or even a +35 like in other seasons. When it comes to the “pro scene” or “e-sports MDI/TGP” scene, all these affixes are totally irrelevant to them. They were doing +12s in 615 gear… They dont have a problem with these affixes, or ANY affix in the history of M+ … The “pros” are way and above everyone else, regardless of the system.
In fact. The ONLY thing the e-sport scene affects M+ is that Blizzard tends to stop balance tuning while the MDI/TGP event is ongoing. And that GREATLY affects the community. And I complain about it each time there is an event.
As for the division in the playerbase you mention, it is real. And its the only thing you are correct about. But it is rooted in the affixes, NOT in the “competitive” (as in VERY top end) part of M+.
What happens is that M+ has infinite levels. And what you want in a healthy system is to distribute the players in their relevant levels according to their skill/dedication. And its not good to mix these people up.
What this 11/12 situation creates is to block a bunch of people that should not be playing together. In other words. An 11 feels like a 21 in S3 DF. But a 12 feels like a 28. And there is NOTHING in-between to fit people of different levels.
So TLDR: You are mixing up people that used to be in a +27 level (in S3 DF) with people that used to be in a +22 (in S3 DF) together in the same key. And that is how you create frustration in the community.
Im sorry WHAT ?
Official statement from blizzard.
And I quote:
In the Player Feedback Loop
The only truly endgame dungeon mode (M+) currently revolves around a timer. This means that other than new mega-dungeons, there isn’t really a place for endgame players who enjoy a more methodical dungeon pacing and gameplay.
No Timer Like the Present
Season 4 changes will apply to all eight of the Dragonflight dungeons. As a part of these adjustments, we have a few goals in mind:
- Recalibrate core difficulties to align with seasonal player experience and progression.
- Serve the community who enjoys dungeon content but feels that Mythic+ content isn’t for them due to the pressures of taking part.
- Create a better environment in Mythic dungeons to prepare more players to take part in Mythic+.
One of the most notable changes players can look forward to is the removal of the timer for Mythic Keystone dungeons for what are currently 0 and 10. Players can run through these dungeons at their own pace without the need to watch the clock while still honing their skills.
end quote
That is the OFFICIAL Blizzard post. Stop talking about fortified/tyrannical in 10s. Has nothing to do with what happens with the squish. Its the OTHER side of the spectrum.
2 Likes
the problem is that if you focus on M+ , you timed all +11, if you spend all day looking for a premade, what you find is 4 other people like you that cant join +12 groups, so it’s like a pug but you spent all day in trade looking for it, after first key failed all leave and gg.
M+ is not a system that let you know people, you know people —> you go M+ with em, you dont go M+ ----> know people there…
Thats the wall I’m facing now.
1 Like
I feel you. This is my situation. A bit better, but very similar.
What I am facing right now is that I built that premade with DF contacts. We did not disband.
But we keep yoyoing 11s/12s. We can time ANY 11 with ease. Its like doing +2 for us by now. But we keep depleting 12s. All we got left to do is literately for ALL of us to reroll ultra meta spec. Or, to tell years long acquaintances that they cant push with us anymore because we need some random dude we just met to play a meta spec.
To get a 12 done. That is an unreasonable request to ask.
So. How long can we keep this up ? Optimistically ? 1 or 2 weeks more. If Blizzard dosent get something done by then the season is over for us. As it is for you.
And IMO it will probably be this. Blizzard has never done radical changes to dungeons like it should. It has always waited for months to get something done, and by then it will be too late.
But I hope that for S2 they remove the CC/Kick changes they did. Its absolutely abhorrent to play like that now. I so much prefer the DF style.
they should split the gap between 11 and 12 so you can gain experience step by step from easy to hard
or change something like the tank system, it’s foolish that as a druid I have to use a def cd before I pull a pack or a boss or die istant (yes all druid tanks do that cause you have no stacks of ironfur so you are literally naked) then after some seconds the cd goes off and if your healer is not ready you die and a lot other crazy mechanics that make no sense.
actually the gearing up progress seems useless, it’s not a couple of item levels more that make you time a +12, at the start pro gamers did that with a way worse equip.
15 ilvl difference is massive. Being full Mythic will definitely help everyone overcome that step. Problem is that it is to slow.
We depend on the Vault for that myth track gear. And with out a reliable source of drops, it will literally take you MINIMUM 14 weeks to get the gear you need.
Its too much.
On a 12 you get a +10% damage PLUS you loose the kiss/curse affix. The combination of both is too extreme.
This is what they should do in reality.
MINIMUM :
- Remove the +10% damage and 10% HP. Let the M+ scaling do its magic. Eventually you will get 1-shot. No need to add even more to that.
Optional/nice to have:
- Leave the kiss/curse affix at 50% effectiveness until a +15/+16 range. After which you loose it completely.
- Get rid of the 15 death penalty affix. Or at-least make the first 5 deaths free.
Cherry on top:
- Revert the CC changes they did. Go back to DF style of CC.
- Tune down the base damage of everything by 20% or more.
- Keys > +14 don’t scale damage anymore. What scales is HP of mobs at DOUBLE the value we have now.
If they do all that in like… 2 weeks time… they go from zero to hero IMO.
I stand by what I said, although I suppose M+ being an e-sport is not totally bad. Their ‘‘reasoning’’ in that statement however is almost laughable. They are barely providing an explanation for the new system in there, it’s simply obvious by their actions what they’re trying to achieve.
Recalibrate core difficulties to align with seasonal player experience and progression.
Uh huh. Says nothing really.
Serve the community who enjoys dungeon content but feels that Mythic+ content isn’t for them due to the pressures of taking part.
Delves, follower dungeons and the Mythic 0 will cover this.
Create a better environment in Mythic dungeons to prepare more players to take part in Mythic+.
I mean, they have definitely not achieved that goal, not without better reporting systems and leaver penalties in place.
A M0 is the old +10, but alas, a M0 is STILL a M0, and Blizzard knows this. Blizzard knows there are people like your good self who will just keep trying to climb regardless of the difficulty, but this does not stop them from putting a soft cap in place to attempt to enforce people to set a limit for themselves. It’s an indirect way to do so to prevent a big kick off by the ‘‘pros’’. The kick off would be much greater if there was a hard cap. Now with the soft cap in place, people can still push, but yes it will be marginally harder to do so from a certain point (+10).
You can comment and criticize whatever you want. What is 100% clear is that the squish was done for those that dont want to play with a timer.
And quit it with this e-sport thing. Its becoming embarrassing at this point because you use the term wrong.
You can believe whatever you want I guess
healing random bad players in even a +10 is unfun.
if i see one more melee zug zug get hit by the orb in dawnbreaker i might actually uninstall.
they dont even know they got hit thats the sad part.
next time you sit in a queue for ages wondering where the healer and tanks are, they cba.
1 Like
I just do 8 +10 for vault every week waiting for something to change, really nosense to pass all day queuing for 100 +12 groups with no invites
1 Like
From doing 12 keys this week 99% of the depletes came from people not using personal defensives i depleted 3 siege of boralus with 6+ min for last boss because of people not using anything when they get debuff. 12s after the nerf should be more then doable but you need to push more keys not to count on healer for everything
I can’t even get enough ilvl to break into +9 with my tanks, and y’all talk about +12… 
m+ should be nerfed. one item per week max lvl isnt going to upset the cash cow milkers top mythic guilds that boost for real money
It’s actually insane yes. I’m at the point where I can confidently just farm 11s without much of a sweat in PuGs but I cba to enter a 12 with a PuG. Unfortunately the friends I usually semi to full premade with have rather bad overlaps with their online times so I usually never get 4 to 5 people rolling at the same time to try 12s which makes me currently hardstuck at 11s because, unless you’ve timed 12s already, you aint getting any invites to a PuG 12 even as a Guardian Druid.
Anyways the difference in difficulty between 11 and 12 is surprisingly big. We tried a NW 12 with 2 PuG people and pretty much ripped the key at one of the easiest pulls in NW due to rng. Bear with me on this long text incoming. 
The 5 pack with 2 Corpse Harvesters and 3 Patchwerk Soldiers right behind the first boss on the high ground thing.
Those Corpse Harvesters cast “Throw Flesh” randomly and it’s not interruptable. You can just hard CC it but they’ll just cast it again.
So both of them decided to cast Throw Flesh at the exact same time on the exact same target. This instantly killed people (dps and healers) with 626/627 ilvl instantly.
This happened 3 times in a row basically ripping the key. Each cast, according to Details, hit for around 3.1m to 3.2m damage on its own, so totalling for around 6.3m dmg instantly.
Easiest solution to this would ofc be to just desync the mobs with a single target stun so they don’t happen to cast at the same time and also just stopping the cast with aoe stops. With no single target stun available to us and 2 random players in our group the coordination was a bit difficult. We also didn’t know Throw Flesh was this dangerous prior to this happening.
Out of curiosity and for science we reset and started doing the key on 11 again. Getting back to the same pack, we were “lucky” enough for boths mobs to cast Throw Flesh on the same target at the same time again. This time, on 11, it brought our shaman down to just 43% of his HP.
So in conclusion this unseemingly random cast that almost just tickles a dps on 11 just flat out instagibs them on a 12.
I expected a big incline on difficulty when entering a 12 due to the double scaling but I didn’t expect this.
I get invited every once in a while to 12s in PuGs.
The problem is that people that invite me are people that just recently timed an 11. And it makes sense. If you time a 10, timing an 11 and then a 12 is a natural progression. Its what usually happens in a normal season.
But these people don’t realize the difficulty spike of a 12. The CC requirements. The raw DPS requirements … The fact that 1 mistake literally bricks your key … Its 100% of the time a guaranteed deplete.
So even if you got invited, you need 4 people that have experience in a 12. And last time I checked on Raider IO, that is 0.14% of the player-base. There simply arent enough people playing to justify a PuG.
Blizzard made a HUGE mistake with the changes to CC. It makes a ton of sense on paper, but they forgot to design the dungeons accordingly.
You CANNOT have “machine gun” casters that cannot be interrupted, and at the same time random targeting and 4/5 casters per pack PLUS trucking damage.
Dont forget that those Surgeons you talk about, you COULD use a CC on them. The problem is that they ALSO have 2 casts that have to be kicked/interrupted. You just don’t have enough CC to deal with everything.
M+ is infinitely scalable. If they want machine gun casters the damage needs to be caped at some value. If we agree we cant CC everything and some things go through, you need to keep that damage at a reasonable level.
You cannot have 1-shot + random targeting mechanics PLUS a nerf to CC/Kicks. Very frustrating.
You wanna know how the “pros” are pulling this off? With absolutely crazy bonkers DPS. That is how. They do so much DPS that the packs die so fast that in 1, 10s long chain of AoE CC the stuff is dead. And it shows. They finish +16s with 3 to 4 minutes left in the timer …
But its ridiculous that the “requirement” for a 12 and above are 636 ilvl, top tier monster bonkers DPS … Makes no sense to me that “skill” has no meaning anymore. Just ZugZug stuff MORE ! Thats the strategy !
That is because you did not get to the packs that come after this one. The ones next to the 3rd boss do this, PLUS you need to save your kicks for goresplatter. So more of this BS random targeting.
Or the skeleton mages. You have the 1 dude that is “machine gun” casting bolts that absolutely truck. 2 archers that are deleting people, and 2 mages ALSO “machine gun” casting. And you need to save your kicks for the “volley” they do because if ONE of those goes through, its an instant wipe.
Or in GB12 I did. The big elementals + 3 casters in the room of the 2nd boss. They do an AoE that chunks out 60 to 70% of someones life. I can live with that. What I cant live with is with “machine gun” casters (3 of them) that if ONE cast goes through in 1s or less after the AoE they also 1-shot someone. I try to carry this by placing a cap totem at that instant to buy me 1 second (yes ONE second) to cast 1 heal, but even a Shaman dosent have enough CC to do it for every AoE !
This is frustrating beyond measure.
I gave up after 30 minutes of trying tbh. One reason I’m not playing DPS is to avoid this issue. I cba to sit in a dungeon browser for 30 minutes. I play M+ in order to be able to play when I want to play but right now I can’t do that. (Self inflicted issue, yes but that’s just my decision. )
Yes precisely. I finished all my 11s and wanted to start doing 12s and then…boom. 
That’s something I’ve said from almost the very start of the season. It’s weird to me that they decided to a) nerf aoe stops with the spell queue change AND b) include more machine gun casters in pretty much every dungeon.
Now you have less tools to stop casts but more casts to stop… doesn’t compute…
That’s what I was talking about, yes. Throw Flesh is not interruptable by kicks so it has to be stopped via hard CC like stuns or disorients but you only have so many. Drain Fluids can be kicked. But Throw Flesh just starts instantly casting again anyways. You basically have to desync those mobs with single target CC in order to not get 1 shot randomly… or just get lucky and not have them target the same target at the same time.
Yes, I’ve been watching a few +15s streams/videos of our favorite gigachad M+ pumpers and the plays the make is incredibly. Not only are they dpsing like madlads but they also pull A LOT while basically chain cc-ing everything to oblivion. Mobs can’t even get auto-hits off before dying, lmao.
The coordination this takes is also pretty huge though so I wouldn’t underestimate that.
Yes, that’s why I specifically mentioned “one of the easiest pulls”. I was expecting a sh*t show later on with the Necormancers, Marauders or the other mobs in the citadel right before Stitchflesh but these random mobs before the 1. boss, who just… die without anybody taking notice of them in 11s and blow just absolutely flabberghasted me on 12.
I absolutely did not anticipate timing the key when I entered it but ripping the key at this pack… couldn’t have imagined that tbh.
Agree. Key progression, apart from gear progression, feels really bad this season imo.
I like challenge but the jump from 11s to 12s is absolutely bonkers. (Imagine how it was before the affix nerf lmao).
As I’ve said - I was expecting a rather big incline in difficulty but 12s felt like something I’d expect a 13 or 14 to feel like, not a 12.
As of now 12 feels like a bigger gatekeeper than it probably should be.
1 Like
Its still less than the coordination required to CC/Kick individual mobs for individual casts and de-sink them and stuff like that. You know how they pull off SV12 and above ?
They literally pull everything to the 1st boss. Like 12 casters, 5 elemental with AoE, and a whole bunch of other stuff … EVERYTHING. They do 1 shockwave to 1 cap totem to 1 tail sweep… and 1 Unholy DK doing 30 MILLION DPS…
And everything dies before a single elemental can cast his AoE.
That is how you do SV12. Its ridiculous.
This is expected. In any other season.
Thing is that people doing 12s and above are 0.15% of the playerbase. They are few to begin with, so naturally, fewer people to play with == more time in quew. Also, the difficulty spike makes the “meta” creep up faster.
Basically. Its what one feels if you were to be doing say… 28s and 29s in S3 of DF. 2/3 key levels below what the “pros” do.
The problem here is that you don’t have the levels 21 (a +11 of today) up to that 28. You jump straight to that level right now. And what this does is that you reach that “top echelon” in 1 key level. So season is over after 4 weeks instead of 3 months. Literally.