6-person M+ and 12-person Raiding

Community General Discussion
1

I’ve read this suggestion many times and heared about it in the community after augmentation got released, and even heared a streamer say this as well, but I wanna give a more explicit way this could be implemented:

Concept would be that M+ consists of 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps and 1 support.

Raid would be 2 tanks 2 heals 6 dps and 2 support.

LFR/Normal/Heroic Raiding will have no scaling anymore and just be 12-man.

It would fix the difference in role-demand for various content, so the playerbase can adapt to the “market” without sacrificing one game-aspect.

They would have to add a lot of support specs.

My personal pro-contra-evaluation:

Pros:
-smaller group size will increase familiarity between members

-easier to balance M+ and raid similarly at the same time like this.

-A segment of the playerbase loves playing support, but can only pick augmentation evoker.

-Feels more epic and good for guilds, if all difficulties have the same group size

-decreases waiting time

Cons:

-Requires a lot of effort to pull it off by Blizzard

-Blizzard needs to be innovative for this

-The concept of every class being brought to a mythic raid would not be relevant anymore.

(To make this thread “clean” and easy to read I wanna ask everyone to only post once, if you wanna share your view. I will not comment further or argue as well)

2

I can’t see them making a static raid size beyond Mythic raiding. It flexes so that guilds can have smaller or larger groups depending on their guild roster and not have to exlude others.

I personally see no benefit to having six as the new standard instead of five man teams. Five is a party. It’s set up as a party activity. Six would make you a raid size.

3

There’s probably no guild and community that wants a static amount of players for their normal/heroic raid. And 12 is a very low amount too.

4 Likes
4

Well, there are thirteen classes and thirty nine specs in the game and only one is ‘true’ support.
If they make dungeons to be six person with one spot reserved to that one and only support, that means that aug players would have huge advantage when it come to invites.

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5

not sure about the m+ but raids really need 10man back, 12 is also ok. it would help a lot

1 Like
6

Static raid sizes are bad. You either end up with too few players and then you need to PuG people, which sucks, or you end up having to bench some of your guild mates, which also sucks.

I generally dislike the new support role in WoW. It makes group composition, balance, and performance attribution too complicated. Blizz should just tread Augs as DPS, who give to and take some DPS from their party.

Support specs work well in MOBAs where you can freely pick and choose a composition for the scope of 1 match-up. In WoW, you need to invest quite a lot of time into a character. Unless you play all day and can keep a couple of alts geared up for progression raiding, you cannot pick freely for every raid night or encounter.

2 Likes
7

With this change i would agree if there is more then just 1 support spec.
So of course i hope in future every class gets one support spec that fits the theme of that class.
And of course i believe that if it happens blizzard also can change party from 5 players to 6 players.

1 Like
8

Just remove augmentation evoker from the game instead

2 Likes
9

And 1 support… despite there literally being only one class so far.

You think waiting now for a tank or healer right now is bad? Waiting for support (evokers) would be infinitely worse…

1 Like
10

This would have a massively detrimental effect on guilds.
At the moment in my guild we have 25-30 people for Normal and Heroic raids at the start of a patch.
This is then whittled down to 20 for mythic when we are ready to start.
A 12 player raid grould would force some players to play what was needed rather than what they want to play as we would need at least 2 full raid groups ie 4 tanks 4 healers, 12 dps and 4 support.
We could then only take 2 tanks 4 healers, 12 dps and perhaps 2 support players into the Mythic team.
This leaves us with two extra tanks and support players who we have geared up but cannot get a mythic spot.
This also can lead to issues with the raid team in general as if there have to be 2 teams a lot of people see that as an A team and a B team. This splits the group and doesnt make for a cohesive team in general.
It also means that a lot of dps would be out in the cold, As there are only 12 dps spots on the raid teams instead of a possible 20.
Not great in the long term for dps.

11

Obviously, they’d have to change the standard party size to six.

And they would add more support specs, which it’s likely they’re going to do anyway now that they’ve made one.

People are shouting the OP’s suggestion down, but I wonder what alternative solutions others can come up with to the augvoker problem.

1 Like
12

Delete damn thing before people become attached to it.

1 Like
13

I always thought dungeons should have a flex option for guilds of friends who want to play together but there may be varying numbers. Maybe 4 - 6.
Of course this couldn’t be done in M+ as it is a competitive form of dungeoneering tuned to a fixed group. But Normal and Heroic surely could have it.

14

would make unrest in guilds with rosta in place and we dont need to force a support spec unto raids.

Flex normal and heroic have helped keep raiding going hence the removal of 10 and 25man and just having one fixed size.

would basically kill PuGs as well as you would need more of tanks and healers and supports.

15

That isn’t going to happen.

People are already attached to it. They were attached to the idea of a support spec long before Blizz even announced it.

1 Like
16

Why though? I mean

Is just gonna bring so much inconvenience to NM/HC guilds. Sorry Bob and Steve but you can’t come to our casual normal clear, because we already have 12 people.

This can be achieved with flex raid sizes as well, most guilds do 10-15 man raid teams.

Explain pls.

Because only evoker has a support spec, I’m sure in time we get more specs like aug.

No it doesn’t. Some guild have 20 Mythic raiders, 30 HC raiders and 40 NM raiders.

For who?

No.

2 Likes
17

To much words: remove Aug Trolldragon.

18

one more person to m plus doesnt help…most ppl are just salty, that they lost their spot to augvoker atm…its like any other dd meta specc in the past, if augvoker falls behind you dont take it for your plus 28 runs

no reason to force this raid set up…there are bosses which you can solo tank or where you need only 1-2 healer for 20 man.

your “pros”:

to mplus its 20% more ppl in the group how is this smaller? :smiley: and for raiding…yo you dont play meta specc for this patch? bye =) you have now already classes(yes classes not only speccs) which you simply dont need (hint its the only class which uses bows/guns)

for mplus same reason…one more person in a dungeon more abilites for the players so the dungeons have to be harder
and for raiding wouldnt it be any different…blizz is balancing most stuff around 20 ppl, then it would be 12, where ppl have less abilites avaible…raiding would become more dull

where is this comment a pro?

thats subjectiv and i say no, smaller groups are mostly boring and when some1 dies you are losing more manpower in % when you are forced to play with only 12 ppl then 20 (for myth raiding)

1 more person for mplus is increasing waittime, because you need more ppl?
and for raiding you can play with 10 in normal/heroic thats even less waittime =)

your “cons”:

yep because its no work needed on this place and is wasted

augvoker is already innovative for wow standard, more support speccs are needed for your idea

you already dont need every class and never had to

19

I actually contest that there are a lot of people that want to play support. I think lots of people play what is meta/OP and will bring them the most sucess.
Once aug isn’t meta it’s participation numbers will plummet.

I also think it wouldn’t help to have a tank and a healer in a group and having to look for a “support”.
The thing is, yes, if they wanted to do a support role that would have to be the way to make it balanced. But, i will counter point with the fact that Aug is actually a dps that came out with more utility than it should have and it needs changes.

While i don’t hate the idea of 12 man at all, i prefer the idea of a flexible raid+ that basically works like M+ so guilds don’t run out of content.

20

Yeah ok, if they add like 4-5 more support specs I cannot see why not.

Sorry but this is the single worst thing blizzard could do.

They already have a fixed 20 man raid for mythic. They do this just because it is impossible to balance the difficulty and not introduce some toxic guild practices.

To ask to remove LFR/Normal/HC flex scaling and make it fixed 12 man, is like asking a doctor to remove your hand, so you can attach a spoon to it.

It would make meta WAY MORE IMPORTANT, it would kill non meta specs, it would kill any casual guilds, and most of all, it would just not provide any benefit.

Blizzard cannot dictate in a raid what you bring. They make the encounters and players figure out how many tanks, heals and dps are needed. Even now there are examples of bosses benefiting from adding/cutting a healer or even becoming easier with a 3rd tank. Do not get me started on how you can make “x” support specs needed, when for all intents and purposes they are just dpses.