Just delete rogue already

In Development WoW Forever Beta Discussion
1

After more than 20 years of playing rogue, and especially after the last 6 on retail, I’ve often wondered whether anyone at Blizzard actually plays the class. With Forever, the answer is obvious.

Before anyone says it: YES, we know rogue is supposed to be the top DPS on Patchwerk-style fights. This post isn’t about DPS, even though the sims currently put us in the trash tier alongside Elemental Shamans (fist bump, bros). Numbers can be tweaked. Core gameplay can’t.

Every other class got TBC and WotLK features and QoL: scaling pets and bags for Warlocks, scaling pets and Auto Shot improvements for Hunters, indoor movement speed and a leap for Cats, and so on. Rogues, meanwhile, are stuck in 2004. Here’s what we got:

  • We can now Sap without breaking Camouflage. Nice one.

  • We can switch targets without losing combo points on the previous one, if we’re not generating combo points. Shame combo points aren’t tied to the player instead of the target, right?

  • Poisons have more charges, because it would be a shame to simply get rid of one of the worst mechanics of all time.

  • Rogues and Cats now get half-tick energy regen. Great, except it straight-up nerfs the PvP opener.

PvE

Picture this: your final capstone is a maintenance finisher nobody asked for (because maintenance buffs aren’t fun), called Venom. Not Envenom. Venom. It’s so weak that a plain Eviscerate does better (Simonize estimated it would need about four times its damage just to break even). And on top of that, you can’t even keep it up, because energy regen and combo point generation mathematically don’t allow it. Funny, isn’t it? That’s Assassination.

Combat has the same problem: no 100% Slice and Dice uptime while using Eviscerate unless you chug Thistle Teas or press AR. Subtlety is reportedly being reworked around Deathmark, so we’ll see.

And while no class should become a 200-APM retail circus, sitting at 15–20 APM while everyone else averages around mid 30 is BORING AS HELL. Rogue is now the slowest-paced class in the game, slower than in Vanilla. For a class whose whole fantasy is being fast and agile, that’s quite the achievement.

PvP

The opener got heavily nerfed (you can’t pull before a 20 energy tick anymore, so basically you’re missing 20 energy), and we’re still painfully slow in stealth even with talents invested. That would be fine if half the game didn’t have new movement speed buffs and escape tools (Paladins, Hunters, Cats, even Taurens as a whole). And on top of all the stealth detection already available through classes, gear and consumables, there’s now a stealth detection node in the legacy tree?! Were they drinking when they made this?

“Yo bro, rogues aren’t buried deep enough. On top of slow, unfun, badly designed PvE gameplay that’s even worse than vanilla’s & classic’s, let’s finish them off with a 2-point talent node that basically almost erases their class fantasy.”
“Oh gosh, Bob, that’s marvelous. Oh, and keep charges on poisons so they have to reapply mid-boss, lmao.”

I know making a class fun while respecting its fantasy is a big ask. But come on. Either delete the class or do something. Four weeks of beta, reviews, analyses and feedback, and nothing has changed and therefore been tested. We’re days from launch and expected to roll rogue on the assumption that you’ll eventually make it enjoyable. That’s just a shame.

12 Likes
2

Did they at least keep the 1-second GCD?

3

Yea they kept it, but beside opening in PvP, that’s not very useful rn considering we land a skill every 5 seconds at best

2 Likes
4

Brutal :frowning:
Situation seems dire for real.

5

I always thought warriors were the biggest whiners, but no it’s rogues.

5 Likes
6

I have a genuine feeling we should revisit this topic in half a year. Everyone will reach 60, get some dungeon gear, will be doing the r14 grind. Let the game settle down a bit. Then we can see what exactly is wrong with a rogue.

I want Cloak of Shadows and Shadowstep too. Doesn’t mean class would be garbage in pvp without them.

1 Like
7

It’s not half tick energy, it’s just smoothed tick energy, so instead of, say, having to wait for 3 ticks or 6 seconds to get enough energy to do a 45 energy move, you need to wait 4s and 500ms. That’s a massive improvement.

Rogues keep forgetting that they got:

  • Mutilate
  • Venom
  • Puncturing Wounds
  • Flawless Execution
  • Dirty Tricks
  • Improved Distract
  • Quietus
  • Cutthroat
  • Thousand Cuts to be replaced with Death Mark.

Somehow you will live, also that’s highly incorrect, in Assassination you can get enough combo points simply through it’s tree to keep up Slice and Dice + Venom. It is entirely mathmatically possible.

It’s literally sitting at the exact same APM as Vanilla/Classic Rogue, that is to say ~20’ish depending on the current set available/spec used. Same as all other classes are sitting around their Vanilla/Classic APM perhaps except the specs that were not viable and needed a helping hand. It should not have been a surprise this was kept.

Here are your options:

  • Fast stabby rogue with higher APM, significantly reduced ability damage and slice and dice across the board.
  • Slower less stabby rogue with less APM, abilities and slice and dice as it currently is.

You cannot have it both ways and the Devs have already said why they went with less APM, because to give you higher APM required them to slash Sinister Strike down to +12 damage at max rank and scale back Backstab by 50% (one must assume it was every spec that needed an overhaul), it meant that now, all other specs that didn’t take the energy gain, were now significantly inferior and to top it all off - it felt really bad when your progression was stunted that much.

2 Likes
8

I really think the whole “Rogues are the best single target DPS” thing is the dumbest design choice Blizzard have made in Forever.

If you invite your undergeared friend to the raid because some regular didn’t show up and they’re a Shaman they still bring totem buffs. An undergeared Warlock still brings curses, stones and summons. Wtf does an undergeared Rogue bring? Their utility is their damage according to Blizzard, but damage is variable. Real utility is not.

Then there’s the problem with APM. Can somebody in their right mind explain why Assassination and Combat have ~22 buttons they can press per minute? This is slower than every single spec in the game, including Mages. The majority of the time you’re just staring at your screen and doing nothing.

The worst part is that for other classes in a similar boat things will eventually get better with gear. Warriors will generate more rage, Shamans will eventually reach a point where they aren’t permanently OOM. For Rogues this moment will never come because energy regen is static.

When you pick the agile and sneaky assassin class in character creation do you really expect to only be pressing a button once every 3 seconds? Why even give Rogues a 1 second GCD in that case?

Nobody cares. No Rogue wants to juggle two maintenance buffs. Many don’t even want to juggle one. It’s awful design even if it is possible to maintain both.

There is a difference between “wanting lower APM” and having to wait between button presses longer than a Mage. The whole point of giving Paladins Holy Strike was so that they don’t fall asleep.

I remember Blizzard saying that they want classes to have 3 - 4 buttons players can press with a CD less than 10 seconds. Well? Where are they for Rogue? Sure, Mutilate has no cooldown, but you literally can’t press it more often than once every 6 seconds, and if you choose to press it then that’s the only button you will be pressing in that 10 second Window unless you’re at max combo points and need to press Slice and Dice.

An Assassination Rogue has 6 GCDs between button presses for utility. That is way too much downtime given that Rogue utility isn’t free. It still costs energy.

Edit: oh, and by the way, the sims that put Rogues at 22 APM include consumables, racials and Goblin Sapper Charges in that 22 APM. The base class is beyond cooked.

2 Likes
9

You are still bringing the armor reduction and respectable damage. If your raid can tolerate an undergeared player, high chance is they can finish the raid without one. So why don’t bring a rogue, invest a bit and then get a good ROI.

Vanilla/Classic rotation was even less engaging. There was only 1 spec to play with 2 variations. Combat sword and combat dagger. Both of these are low APM (with combat sword being slightly faster). Now combat dagger generates 45% more combo points than before meaning more finishers.

Warriors will generate somewhat more rage (more crit). Which is still probably not enough to be able to use their main abilities on CD. Shamans will still have to use mana pots on CD the same way they were doing in TBC. Maybe less cause totem switching is gone.

Thats for PvP bruv.

That’s kind of boring, but it’s the core class design since the dawn of times. We can live with that. Although I couldn’t agree more - “Venom” is just bad design. Not because it’s a maintenance buff, but because it’s the pinnacle of the Assassination tree. Same garbage design as “Hunger for Blood” was in WotLK.

-

TL;DR - class is faster/more diverse than it was in vanilla/classic. It wasn’t bad back then, it’s not bad now.

Don’t be another doomsayer.

10

Expose Armor doesn’t stack with Sunder. Sunder is a minor cost for the Warrior to keep up, and 0 cost if it’s a tank.

An undergeared Rogue will not be dealing “respectable” damage. Meanwhile you can bring any random Mage just for Arcane Int and they will boost the raid’s overall DPS and healing significantly.

The whole point of Forever’s class changes was to make specs more engaging to play, up to a reasonable point. Currently Rogues have half the APM of a Paladin, and that is with consumables included.

The class is so low APM you can literally play two Rogues at the same time by alt-tabbing between them. And, most importantly, it will NEVER get better because energy doesn’t scale.

“Somewhat” is the understatement of the century.

Bears, Fury and Prot Wariors are hard-capped by their GCD in just estimated tier 1 gear.

Arms, Ret and Enhancement are in a much healthier 34 two 47 APM range. This includes consumables, like Runes.

Rogues are 22 APM. With consumables, racials and bloody Sapper Charges factored in.

???

Exactly, which is why it needs to change. It’s a terrible button to press even if it produces numbers.

Every single class has gotten more buttons to press. Meanwhile Rogue was faster in Classic than it is predicted to be in Forever. The point of Forever was to make people not fall asleep at the keyboard.

Funny of you to assume that I will be playing a Rogue.

1 Like
11

If it’s 10 man raid, you might not have a warrior tank.

Funny, cause in vanilla a blue geared rogue was dealing same or even more damage than an MC geared mage. But that doesn’t matter, cause whining for the sake of whining beats reason.

The whole point of bringing the fluid energy regen is to be able to introduce energy regen mechanics. But that doesn’t matter, cause whining for the sake of whining beats reason.

Because you found a simulator for a game that isn’t released yet and 80% of items in it aren’t datamined? Go play retail bruv

Button is fine. It just isn’t a capstone talent.

Really? how?

You’re still a doomsayer, regardless of the spec or the game. That’s mentality bruv

1 Like
12

That’s fair, I meant half second regen since it regens 5 energy every half second. It still kills pooling a tick before the opener, which is what I was pointing at for PvP. Point conceded, the problem stays.

Let’s do the math then :

  • Base regen of 10 energy/s, so 600 energy per minute.
  • Venom lasts 21 s at 5 CP, so about 3 casts per minute.
  • Slice and Dice with Improved SnD lasts about 30 s at 5 CP, so about 2 casts per minute.

5 finishers per minute x 5 CP = 25 CP per minute.

Mutilate gives 2 CP for 60 energy, about 2.4 CP on average with Seal Fate crits. That means 10 Mutilates, or 600 energy. Add 5 finishers x 25 energy = 125 energy. Even with Relentless Strikes (Assassination tier 3, so every Assassination build has it) refunding 25 energy on every 5-CP finisher, you end up at exactly 0 energy left.

So yes, it’s “possible”, as long as you never press Eviscerate or Rupture. And that’s not my interpretation: Blizzard’s own Rogue/Warlock deep dive says they expect Assassination to spend its finishers on Venom and Slice and Dice, with Rupture and Eviscerate as a lower priority. Our 31-point capstone is designed to replace our damage finishers with a second maintenance buff. That’s the whole spec: build, refresh, refresh, repeat. “Mathematically possible” and “good design” are two very different things.

And what do you get for that? Per the discussion of Simonize’s video, a 5-CP Venom adds roughly 400–500 damage, and taking it at all is a DPS loss compared to just pressing Eviscerate. Simonize is one of the reference rogue theorycrafters. He said he’d play prot warrior in Forever if his income didn’t depend on rogue content. That’s not me doomsaying.

A list of talents isn’t gameplay. Mutilate replaces Backstab, so it’s not an extra button. Venom is a second maintenance buff. Most of the rest are passives and few bad ones. Why do you think we even got Imp Distract ? Hmm ?

That’s exactly the problem. The time for feedback is now, during beta. Not six months after launch, when people have already rolled, geared and given up.

So the 1 s GCD matters during roughly 5 seconds of opener per fight. Thanks for confirming my point.

Great. Where are they? Show me the talent. The engine allows it, and that’s precisely why it’s frustrating that the tree doesn’t use it.

Nothing in the calculation depends on gear. Yet, they indeed COULD add an energy regen think on tier set. That’s true.
Yet it’s the most dumb things you could do for a class. You know nothing about gameplay designs and it shows. Especially on Forever, you should NEVER need an extra tier set to make a class somewhat enjoyable. First because if a class NEEDS it, it meands the class is BAD designed. Then, who knows when you’ll get it in Forever, which leads to a lot of people who haven’t dropped it yet due to lack of luck, or simply not taken into raid cuz rogue are doomed playing with their feces while everyone else is just enjoying their class.

Giving numbers isn’t whining. Feel free to correct them.

TL;DR – concrete asks, not doom:

  1. Rework the Venom capstone into a real button, or fold its effect into Mutilate/Envenom.
  2. Remove poison charges entirely.
  3. Make combo points player-bound.
  4. Use the fluid regen to give rogue at least one energy-return mechanic in each tree.
2 Likes
13

Simonize is saying that because it’s click bait and click bait generate views and being angry generates more views than being positive, somehow he loves Rogues in Classic, but it’s unplayable in Forever.. Please.. Simonize should also realize that there’s 6 months of balance ahead for all classes and that if Venom underperforms, Venom gets buffed. It’s kind of obscene to think otherwise really.

Again, more than happy to give rogues more APM, it comes with ability damage/slice and dice nerfs. So what would you prefer, because the Devs were quite clear on how much higher APM affected the rogue abilities in terms of nerfs, should go watch the podcast on classes and then return to the rest of us if that’s really preferable.

1 Like
14

Emphasis on “might”. No other raid utility is based on “might”.

Besides, you likely will want a Warrior regardless because only Warriors can bring an attack speed slow while also bringing Sunder.

Funny that this isn’t Vanilla. We do not know what T1 gear will look like because we don’t even know what pre-raid gear is going to look like.

Then where are they? Sure, they might be on the T1 set or they might not be. Should the playability of two specs entirely rely on getting T1? Forever was supposed to fix that.

Your entire argument is “stop whining” without giving me a reason why I should stop wining when the class who’s only purpose is single target DPS, according to Blizzard, is likely to be underperforming on single target DPS while also being terrible to play compared to all the other classes that were massively improved.

Again, your entire argument relies on the T1 or per-raid set fixing glaring gameplay issues. Glaring gameplay issues that most other classes do not have.

No, the button isn’t fine. We don’t need garbage buttons that aren’t fun to press. Neither as a talent nor baseline.

“Really? how?” what? “Really? how?” have other classes gotten more buttons or “Really? how?” is Rogue faster in Classic than in Forever?

I don’t think I need to explain how Paladins and Shamans have gotten more buttons to press. As for being faster on Classic - Forever Assassination is slower than Classic Combat while Forever Combat is mostly the same.

No, I think the future is bright and sunny for Warriors, Hunters, Paladins, Druids and Shamans. I think it has never been better, actually. If you’re a Horde Rogue though? Yikes.

2 Likes
15

Sorry for only quoting this part and not the rest.

Forever Assassination is by far quicker than Combat. 2 CP for 60 energy and quite literally a guaranteed 3 CP if at least one of mutilate attack crits (and mutilate have 20% crit chance even without gear. With t1 it will be around 50%). And combat dagger generating 45% more CP than before. So only combat sword is quite the same speed-wise.

You keep on complaining cause other classes got a candy and you didn’t. Or I’d rather say I didn’t, cause you already mentioned, you aren’t playing a rogue.

My main is UD rogue, was in vanilla, was in classic, will be in forever. And I don’t feel bad about it. We’ll see in half a year. For now - rogue feels great.

16

Not according to sims. You still don’t have any energy to press that Mutilate.

Great, but whether anybody will play that depends on which weapons will scale better. Puncturing Wounds doesn’t make the spec that much faster either. Backstab is still 20 energy more than Sinister Strike.

Exactly. Because the point of Forever was to give all classes candy. Rogue got vegetables - they get the job done, but nobody wants to eat them.

1 Like
17

Click bait ? Simonize is litteraly the one making the sims lmao. But fine, my calculation only used beta client tooltips and Blizzard’s own deep dive. Is Blizzard’s clickbaiting too ?

Buffing Venom’s numbers fixes nothing. It just makes the maintenance buff more mandatory. A better-paid chore is still a chore.

Paladins got Holy Strike. Shamans got more buttons. Nobody had to turn their core abilities into a +12 damage pillow to pay for it. Apparently APM is free for every class except the one whose entire fantasy is being fast. Not to mention rogue current DPS is below the dirt. But fine, nerf SnD, take it away even. It’s a boring spell, always has been.

Let’s be generous and take your best case: 3 CP on every single Mutilate, every time.

  • Mutilate costs 60 energy. At 10 energy/s, that’s 10 Mutilates per minute, max. More CP per press doesn’t let you press more often.
  • 10 Mutilates × 3 CP = 30 CP.
  • Venom + Slice and Dice eat 25 of them.
  • 5 CP left = one Eviscerate per minute.

Total: 10 Mutilates + 5 refreshes + 1 Eviscerate = 16 buttons per minute, in your best case. “By far quicker.” Sure.

Hold on. Earlier in this very thread :

So Wutever’s sims are invalid because nobody knows the gear, but your T1 crit estimate is gospel? Either we know T1 or we don’t, bruv.

Also you earlier :

So the class feels great, its capstone is garbage, and we should “revisit in half a year”. Starbringer also says six months of balance ahead. Everyone agrees rogue is fine, as long as we wait six months for it to be fixed. That’s funny ain’t it ?

…Yes? That’s literally the thread. Every class got candy. Rogue got a second bowl of the same porridge with “Venom” written on it. Thanks for summarizing my whole post in one sentence.

Also for your knowledge, here’s the number of total words used in every Forever’s beta patch combined by class :
Mage : 1030
Shaman : 969
Druid : 913
Paladin : 875
Warrior : 801
Priest : 733
Hunter : 640
Warlock : 261
Rogue : … well… 111

1 Like
18

10/10 agree.. played rogue on beta, others got stronger, unless comparing duel tournament, it was always a skill issue, worked well for me in pve and pvp..

1 Like
19

We do know T1, we don’t know the rest bruv.

Yes. 1 talent doesn’t make or break a class. I don’t care if anyone agrees with my “class feels great” assessment or not. For the six months - that’s rough assumption when the majority of class playerbase will be able to play all specs in all kind of environments. Then any kind of feedback will be based on actual gameplay rather than forum whining.

So? Does this makes a class bad?

20

Great, then the sims Wutever quoted for warriors and bears, run in estimated T1 gear, are valid by your own standard. Welcome aboard.

And since we know T1, please point me to those energy-regen mechanics you mentioned earlier. I’ll wait. I brought snacks.

Also, my calculation already assumed 100% of Mutilates giving 3 CP. Your 50% T1 crit is worse than my best case, and my best case was 16 APM. Gear doesn’t save you when the bottleneck is energy.

Agreed. It took several:

  • a 31-point capstone that’s a second maintenance buff (your words: “garbage design”)
  • poison charges
  • target-bound combo points
  • a nerfed opener
  • a stealth detection node in the legacy tree
  • the lowest APM in the game
  • stupidly designed talent tree with RS not being baseline
  • and so on…

That’s not one talent, that’s a starter kit. And Venom isn’t “just one talent” either: Blizzard built the entire Assassination finisher priority around it. It is the spec.

FOUR weeks of BETA, four weeks in a dedicated realm to TEST things so people can give FEEDBACKS. That was litteraly the whole point of it, not for you to test the best route to level up your char. But sure, let’s wait until everyone has rolled, leveled and geared a rogue before mentioning it’s boring. Very efficient. Next time I’ll check if the milk is spoiled after drinking the whole bottle.

Says the guy on his fifth post in a rogue feedback thread.

No. It proves nobody touched it, which is exactly the point of this thread: four weeks of feedback, 111 words of changes. Mage got a novella. Rogue got bug fixes.

1 Like