Sorry but you are wrong. Tuning it every week like this isn’t wasting resources. It’s the daily routine. I prefer less tuning overtime. All they are doing is reading forums with NO TESTING whatsoever and than they overnerf or overbuff classes (I bet they aren’t even paid to do the 5 minute job) which is why PvP is the worst content that exists in the game - which is why the expansion itself isn’t as good as people praise it.
Bold assumption tjat they read the forums…
Where’s your proof that they read forums?
And why are you always so negative with posts about the expansion? I never see you say anything good, yet here you are talking about the game every day. Just stop playing if you don’t like it, or do you have Stockholm Syndome?
I don’t understand… why do you play then? isn’t the whole point of M+ to learn the dungeons and master them? also I play a tank too, don’t even try to make it more complicated than a simple check marks you have to do.
Legit the hardest thing you have to do this dungeon pool is, managing hyrja and all that requires from you is to simply… walk to the other side, very hard.
As for routes, I doubt a 1 minute check on what’s the most popular route this week is super hard.
You’re running these dungeons for ~4 months, sometimes even more if blizzard didn’t rotate them out of the dungeon pool, 4 months is enough for you to learn way more than 16 dungeons.
As for loot tables, blizzard can simply modify loot tables and make some dungeons share loot, but why is having more loot options bad in the first place? I don’t particularly enjoy having crit/vers bracers as my BiS from the dungeons because that’s the only wrist that drops from dungeons…
As for the being a bad player argument, that’s kind of irrelevant, even with 8 dungeons in the pool, you still find people at +20 that don’t even know basic things like aiming the rock on blazehoof or placing the storm away or I kid you not, jumping at the first boss in CoS.
Now adays you have BigWigs/DBM/Weakauras and plenty of other addons that basically play the game for you, and if that’s not enough blizzard even added their own dungeon journal alongside warnings and instructions mid fight alongside sound queues.
I think it’s fair to say the learning the dungeons/routes are really not a big issue, rather mastery and that’s what makes M+ing fun.
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you confused me with somebody else
where’s the proof that Big Bang ever happened? Yet 4 Billion people believe in it for some reason.
I believe they are reading the forums instead of testing cause people on forums are 90% of the time wrong about what’s OP or weak when it comes to classes - so they nerf weak classes and buff strong. Even when they do end up reading a rational post on these forums, they mix the tunings for wrong modifiers which should allow fixing the problem, but instead they make it worse.
With that being said, even though people cry too much about certain classes (being wrong or right about them), they still have a point, and the point is that PvP sucks and they can’t fix it. Those tunings every week you mentioned are useless and not rational - so yes, they really don’t care about the third of their game content. If it didn’t suck there wouldn’t be complains about it from thousands of people around the world. You can like the game, and millions of us can like it too, but that doesn’t make it good or even better than what we previously cried about (it’s not - especially that poor garbage content called PvP that’s being destroyed more and more every year).
So instead of being a fanboy that protects the game with PvP fast and useless tuning, protect it for it’s other content (cause it’s certainly the best MMORPG when it comes to PvE). Fanboying it with PvP arguments in its current state makes your arguments invalid and weak.
Making factually true statements that Blizzard are making more frequent changes to PvP than they have in the last 2 expansions is ‘fanboying’?
My God, you people have something wrong with you.
Here’s the thing… I’m playing with the bare minimum addons as possible. Thundering I use my eyes because the ball and the storm are visible.
Odyn I put coloured marks myself to see where to go.
I don’t need addons to tell me to move away from stuff, I’m smart enough to do it.
I only use Details. Plenty enough.
I know exactly the mobs to interrupt, the one to dodge, every single little minuscule detail of that dungeon (yet sometimes I fail because I get too cocky). You know why? Because I learn from my mistakes. I never watched a guide, nothing.
I watch MDI to see if I learn new tricks, like the reverse beam on Herja which I managed to do 8/10 times.
You say 16 dungeons… I say first learn how to master at least ONE, then we can talk about 16.
The difference between the 8 we have is already pretty big, you think they could actually balance 16 dungeons properly?
I doubt dungeon balance is something that people or especially blizzard cares about much, and yes 16 dungeons being balanced isn’t that hard of a thing, especially when tapping into older dungeons that have already been designed and just need to be scaled properly.
I say this because if balance was such a huge thing, dungeon disparity wouldn’t have existed, and a truly balanced dungeon rotation would just be 8 of the same dungeon reskinned.
Need I remind you things like King’s rest existed, the contrast between KR and Junkyard was huge in terms of difficulty, but people just went into the levels they are able to get to, that’s all.
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Its not just the difficulty between the dungeons but also their lootpool.
Take that up with HoV tyra bosses and temple. They clearly can’t scale things properly and you want to bring more stuff into the mix.
Need I remind you that they added 3 minutes to the timer one patch after KR m+ was out just to make it doable by the masses? The problem isn’t for people pushing score, the problem with dungeon balance is for masses playing WoW.
How many threads have we seen about AV, RLP, Academy etc.
Which is solvable by like you said, patching the dungeon if it’s too whack.
Currently Hyrja is a breeze in comparison to legion Hyrja, they also adjusted some bosses to be friendlier this time around, for example the first boss of ToJS no longer spawns elementals.
They also adjusted RLP to be much easier and now its very doable, they also nerfed the last boss in TojS, isn’t that why hotfixes and stuff like this exists, you shouldn’t assume a dungeon is going to be left as is until the end of the expansion.
The current 8 are so balanced that people have been farming SBG 24/7. Might as well delete the others.
So now it’s doable? You’re talking 6-8 different nerfs for you to say “very doable”.
Ah yes, Arcing bolt hitting for 220k+ on DPS players is a breeze.
Except that even after 2-3 nerfs people are still asking for more nerfs. If you add 8 more dungeons you’re talking about even more time before stuff gets fixed.
Heck, they still haven’t fixed SBG hitboxes after Bonemaw reappears, blood boil still can’t hit the boss unless you’re literally standing with your feet of the edge.
Making frequent changes and doing it wrong is the same as not doing anything.
Here’s how this argument will be explained to you better (in steps stuck in a loop):
- Your statement for frequent PvP changes is true.
- The changes are irrational - which means they worsen the game.
- You protect the game from being verbally trashed.
- Your argument in WoW’s defense are frequent PvP changes.
- Read the steps all over again and be stuck in the loop forever.
That’s why I said you were fanboying.
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I’ll echo this sentiment.
Or you can put it in another way:
Frequent changes are great, but frequent changes indicate that things aren’t great.
The basis for Blizzard making changes is that they’ve identified a need to do so, i.e. something is less than ideal.
Retribution Paladins getting a huge overhaul is great, but the fact that Retribution Paladins are getting a huge overhaul is because Retribution Paladins are currently not very great.
Ideally the game should receive 0 changes, because that would indicate that it’s perfect.
And it’s the same with PvE and Dungeons. People were happy when Blizzard nerfed the Ruby Life Pools early in the Season because it was heavily over-tuned. But the fact that Blizzard had to nerf the Dungeon at all was because they shipped it in a less-than-ideal state. And that’s not something to be happy about.
As players we shouldn’t hope that Blizzard makes lots of balance changes and tuning. We should expect that Blizzard gets the balance and tuning right from the start. That’s what the PTR and Beta tests are for.
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I can’t believe such a simple concept is flying over both of your heads.
They are making more and more changes. That means they are dedicating more time and resources to PvP. More time and resources than we have seen before.
Just because they made no changes, doesn’t mean the game was good. What kind of logic is that?
Since neither of you don’t really play the game, I’ll give you a practical example to illustrate your logic. In SL s3 and s4, Holy Priest was the most overpowered healer the game has ever seen. It was really the only healer played in AWC and dominated healer representation in 2v2 and 3v3. (35-50%+) of healer rep was holy priest. What did Blizzard do about this? Nothing. Does that mean everything was fine? All the posts from arena players and tweets from tournament players complaining mean nothing since Blizzard made no changes meaning the spec was fine? Don’t be ridiculous.
You know, it’s perfectly okay to call Blizzard lazy and incompetent and praise them when they make more effort.
Re your last paraphraph, that perfectly sums up a player that doesn’t really engage in much content concerned with class balance and is a straight up forum dweller. It is such an out of touch opinion and it is disappointing that you are ignoring so many different variables. This opinion that classes should be the finished product in beta and ptr is so hilarious that I think you’re trolling for your own sake.
Please stop replying to me, I would like my future discussions to be with people who actually play the game.
No.
The Beta test for Dragonflight was the shortest WoW expansion Beta test ever.
The fact that Blizzard didn’t do enough testing is evidenced by their need to do post-release changes like overhauling Guardian & Balance Druid talent trees, as well as Retribution Paladin. And that’s on top of all the other talent tree changes they’ve made to other classes and specs.
They don’t get applause for that from me, because that’s all stuff they should have done during the Beta test. They just didn’t, because they rushed the expansion release, and now they’re playing catch-up.
It’s a bit like in the Battle for Azeroth Beta test where they started testing the Azerite Traits very late in the Beta, so they didn’t have enough time to iterate on the design before the expansion was released. And then they had to spend the following 6 months making post-release changes to Azerite Traits to fix the many issues that they didn’t manage to fix during the Beta.
That wasn’t an ideal process, and neither is it for Dragonflight. The class balance and tuning in the wake of redesigning the talent system required way more Beta testing. That’s evidenced by the fact that Blizzard are making so many post-release changes.
Blizzard aren’t spending more resources on this. It’s just the class designers who are doing their job during Dragonflight rather than whilst it was in Beta testing. And that in itself is an annoying trend, that “when it’s ready” & “Blizzard polish” have been dismissed in favor of getting products out the door quickly and fixing issues on the fly.
There’s some nuance here, which can be summarized as rate of change. I’ll let this guy explain it using two games where he’s been more or less in charge of balance changes:
Just a word of advice. You’re posting on a level 10 alt. Your post history is filled with examples of you doing armory checks and belittling people for not being pro enough.
You come across as an adolescent teenager with that kind of rhetoric, and it’s not doing you any favors – trust me. I mean, the average player in WoW is probably mid 30’s, so this kind of trippy ego attitude doesn’t mix well with reasoned adult conversation.
You’re trying to play tough on the internet, and that just looks childish.
You must be trying to just increase your 10k forum post counter at this point because there’s no way on this Earth somebody who actually plays the game would say that Blizzard are not investing more time and resources into arenas than they have in the last 2 expansions.
I mean your point that class balance is ‘what ptr and beta testing are for’ independently confirms you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about regarding arenas.
‘Reasoned adult conversation?’ 
you’re literally delusional, wrong and refuting facts. Quite literally the opposite of ‘reasoned’.
Listen, you can do all the mental gymnastics and inhale all the copium in the world to convince yourself your abysmal practical in game experience puts you at the same level of knowledge and understanding as someone that is 2900 + 3v3 experience, has multiple gladiators and actively plays every PvP season. The realists know that this is simply not the case.
You can’t even accept a simple fact that Blizzard are tuning DF S1 more than they did in any of the seasons from the previous 2 expansions. You can’t accept it because you don’t know it. You don’t know it because you didn’t ACTIVELY play the seasons. VERY simple concept. This isn’t bashing, it’s pointing out facts. If you think it’s bashing, you obviously have an overestimated ego in some way.
You also keep trying to shift the goalposts, ‘tuning more means the game is bad, that something is wrong’…okay? Not the point? The point is that they’re giving more attention to PvP, and you’re trying to make it seem like a bad thing and making yourself look very desperate to make a point about something you’re underqualified to comment on.
I personally don’t hold Shadowlands or Battle for Azeroth up as the gold standard to measure the success or failure of class balance by. So maybe that’s why we differ in our opinions and expectations.
I linked you a blog and a video by Greg Street, who is the former Lead Systems Designer for World of Warcraft from WotLK to MoP.
And the alpha & omega is that class balance changes and tuning can be summarized as such:
Hotfixes - Tuning numbers.
Minor patches - Minor design additions and design changes.
Major patches - Overhauls and re-designs of existing design.
Beta tests - New systems designs and core design overhauls.
That’s basically Blizzard’s approach to balance changes and tuning.
The hotfixes aren’t resources-heavy, because they just tune numbers, like +10% is changed to +20%. There’s no testing involved, it’s entirely driven by data and gut feeling.
The amount of hotfixes Blizzard are doing is not dictated by the resources they put toward it, but by their philosophy with regards to rate of change.
There are basically two approaches. You have the rollercoaster approach where classes constantly go up and down and up and down on the balance spectrum, because you’re making constant changes. This has the benefit of pleasing people who feel the need for changes, but the downside is that it makes it difficult to practice strategies and optimize gameplay, because everything is always in flux.
And then you have the opposite where you only rarely make changes. This obviously preserves balance outliers for longer, but it preserves the integrity of the gameplay for its duration (competitive games favor this for that reason).
So the amount of tuning hotfixes Blizzard makes in one expansion versus another is more driven by a change in design philosophy rather than a change in resources.
And Blizzard have basically switched philosophy over the years.
My point is just that the kind of stuff Blizzard traditionally gets done in a Beta test or reserves for a major content patch is something they’ve pushed ahead to the minor patches for Dragonflight, which is indicative that they didn’t get it done during the Beta when they were meant to. Like with Azerite Traits in Battle for Azeroth.
And again, to me that doesn’t come across as Blizzard going above and beyond normal duty, but rather comes across as if they didn’t do their homework in time and are scrambling to get it done now.
My point is that this is a forum for conversation and discussion about WoW. The goal of a conversation or a discussion isn’t to trash-talk the other part and tout your own horn, but to share viewpoints and gain insight.
You’re coming across way too hostile and it’s completely unnecessary. Saying that I’m completely delusional is not a great rhetoric point. It’s unnecessary fluff that doesn’t convey anything of substance that’s constructive to the discussion.
And if you don’t feel like discussing because it makes you upset, then just keep out of it.