A new improved system for Mythic Keystones!

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

Hello.

In the past I have suggested that the timer on Keystone dungeons should count up from zero rather than down to zero. This suggestion was based on the idea that when players see the red zeros on the timer, they feel like they have failed and leave the dungeon.

I now see that the biggest issue which causes people to leave Keystone dungeons is that they feel they are not going to gain anything from the dungeon towards their own personal progress.

If people need to get a dungeon completed in-time, in order to raise their dungeon score then staying to complete a dungeon over-time is of no benefit to them at all. In this case, when a dungeon is clearly not going to be completed in-time, the only thing keeping them there is the bad feeling they might experience from causing someone else’s key to lose a level by them leaving.

I know there has to be some sense of teamwork and sociability here, but anchoring on someone’s empathy towards others is the wrong way to go about this from a developer’s point of view.

So, here is an idea for a better system for Mythic Keystones


  • On the character’s Inventory or Bags, there should be a Keyring for Mythic Keystones.
  • Mythic Keystones should be acquired from killing a World Boss which resides outside of or roams around near the entrance to the Dungeon. A Dungeon Keeper NPC.
  • The Keystone only needs to be acquired one time for each character & each dungeon and it is for keeps. (Permanent, one for each dungeon).
  • Each individual Mythic Keystone should have an XP level which progresses when the dungeon is completed. Perhaps with 10 points to each level, (which could be styled like runes on an interface).
  • If someone wants to rub a level off of their Keystone, they should visit an NPC/Vendor and pay to downgrade their Keystone. Likewise if someone wishes to Cap their Keystone at a certain level, they should visit the NPC/Vendor to apply a level-cap.
  • When a character completes a dungeon using their own Keystone, in-time, then it should level up to the next level.
  • When a character completes a dungeon using someone else’s Keystone, in-time, then their own Keystone for that particular dungeon should gain XP towards it’s level.

For example, if Player-1 has a level 1 Keystone for Dungeon-X and they complete the dungeon in-time using Player-2’s Keystone, on level 10, then Player-1’s Keystone might gain a few levels from the XP. But then if Player-1 has a level 9 Keystone for Dungeon-X and they complete the dungeon in-time using Player-2’s level 10 Keystone, then Player-1’s Keystone might gain 1 to 3 XP point towards becoming level 10, based on completion time (when 10 points are required to gain a full level).

  • When a dungeon is completed over-time or disbanded before completion, then the Keystones of the players in the group should gain NO XP, but the Keystones should not lose anything.

Mythic Keystones should Never lose a level from completing a dungeon over-time, or from someone leaving the dungeon before it has been completed.

Players should not feel like they owe someone an apology for not completing a dungeon in-time. Nor should players be responsible for the progress of other players. We should all be responsible for our own personal progress only, which should not be hindered or halted by other players.

We all have a bad day sometimes, or random occurrences in our lives which affect our game-play or cause us to have to randomly stop playing. This should not be a factor which affects the progress of someone else in the game.

Nobody should have to apologise and nobody should feel resentment towards others for incomplete dungeons or downgraded Mythic Keystones.

I believe that this system which I propose here, would make players more inclined to make an effort towards completing Mythic Keystone dungeons in-time, even when it isn’t their own Keystone. This system would be more rewarding to each and every player participating in a Mythic Keystone dungeon, Promoting Teamwork and Sociability.

The system which I propose would be a stable system, which would allow players to progress without needing to consider paying for boosts. Which would also build a sense of teamwork between even random players, as everyone would get something for completing the dungeon in time. Some XP towards their own Keystone and an advancement in their own personal progress.

Thanks for reading.

Please feel free to contribute towards this idea or to leave other suggestions in this topic.

EDIT: Added bullet points to make things more clear as there was some confusion about the suggestion.

2 Likes
2

Pointless overcomplication.

3 Likes
3

Id rather have a slightly more advanced system which you find complicated, (even though my suggestion is quite simple)
 than a degenerative system which causes endless arguments, like the current one.

Sick of not being able to progress due to other players tbf.

4

All that fluff boils down to “don’t let keys deplete”, no?

And its a team activity. If you have mad reflexes, dps output and dungeon knowledge and the team is letting you down, maybe work on team building skills instead of trying to change the game to remove consequences of failure.

4 Likes
5

There shouldn’t be consequences.

Nobody should be penalised for the mistakes or grievances of others.

How does the current system build any sense of team? One person gets an upgrade, everyone else gets nothing.

You make a group for a Level 14 Keystone on a Wednesday, hoping to put a level on it, and choose the best players available for the group. You consider group composition and you set about doing the dungeon with all of the possibilities of failure taken into account and accounted for.

But then, the people who you chose give an half-hand performance because they only care about completing the dungeon to get a point towards their “Great Vault” reward for next Wednesday. They have no interest in giving it their best, because, hey, it isn’t their Keystone.

So, your Keystone loses a level. Then you make a group for level 13, same again, loses a level.

Then you get a Keystone for a dungeon which is particularly difficult this week because of the weekly affixes, so it loses another level.

Now you have a level 11 keystone, you manage to put a level on it, then you get the same dungeon again which is difficult this week, so it goes back down to 11.

What starts at 14 goes 13, 12, 11, 12, 11, 10, 11, 12, 11, 12, 13, 12, 11
 etc.

It doesn’t matter how good you are as an individual player. Teamwork has no effect.

The current system is degenerative. Your personal progress is in the hands of 4 other players at all times. Realistically, there is no incentive for those other players to even care about your personal progress.

“Don’t let keys deplete”
 what?

Its ok for paid players who have set teams and the beautiful social butterfly.

For individuals, the current system is very punishing and this causes so many arguments in the game.

I have joined other people’s groups for Keystone dungeons which would count towards my personal progress, given the dungeon my best, only for the other people to fall out and start arguing then quit on the last boss.

It is tiring. You may have had a better experience with the current system, but I think you are a part of a minority if that is the case.

6

If you won’t accept consequences for failure, then you don’t expect rewards for success either - right?

If you made the group for your key, and you chose the people in that group, then you’re being penalised for your own bad choices.

The reward is enjoying a good run with cool people. At least it is for me. The chances of me getting upgrades from keys are slim now.

You clearly didn’t choose the best players available, then.

I guess you’re right
 if you only play with random strangers. I play with friends and guildies. Our goal is always to help each other with personal progress.

On what basis? How have you studied this? Can we see your research?

I think (echoing you here) that you are in the minority. The number of posts here complaining about the mythic keystone system is relatively small, compared to the total number of players running mythic keystones. Maybe that’s because the vast majority are happy with the system as it is and are busy running keys rather than coming here to complain.

I see you and your regular healer have timed keys with a lot of different dps. Are you saying none of those dps were any good? None of them were good enough to add to your friends list so you can invite them to your keys again in the future? It’s so difficult to get into keys as dps that most people would be delighted to be added as friends by a regular tank/healer pairing. It seems to me that all your problems could be solved by building connections with other players.

2 Likes
7

There shouldn’t be any consequences other than “you failed”.

You pay for food, potions, flasks, runes, etc. This gold is a loss.

Time is money friend. Your time is lost.

It is a game
 You lost!

That doesn’t mean you should also be punished. The key should not lose a level. It is the equivalent of dying on a quest boss, to return to him and he has an extra level each time you die.

It doesn’t matter who made the group. If the group fails, you failed, you lost.

Can you imagine if you lost a level each time you died whilst levelling up? People would soon be complaining about it right?

Can you imagine losing a level each time you die and having to level up again?

Echo all you like, there are millions of players in this game, and only Blizzard know the actual stats, but I would bet that their data would show that more levels are lost on Keystones each week than gained. Because more Pick-up-groups are run than guild and friend premade groups. If that wasn’t the case then there never would have been any need for blizzard to design an interface for a Group Finder tool.

For you personally, you have been rewarded by the delight of spending time with your friends. Good for you. Sadly this isn’t the case for everyone. I might like to run some dungeons with friends, but the majority of dungeons i run are when my friends are not online or available.

I find the current Keystone system to be very degenerative and punishing.

I would wager that is simply because the majority of people just don’t bother to complain. If they go to a restaurant and order a medium steak, and get it well done or rare, they either eat it or leave it on the plate, sooner than complain. (also the game is pretty dead right now and will be until season 2).

I am not here to complain, I am here to give a suggestion for a better system. I appreciate that you are happy with the current system, but it suits you because you only play with friends, and that is your reward.

1 Like
8

Myep. Not much to do anymore. Cancelled my sub, too, for now. I’ll get back when new content pops up.

9

How is the key losing a level being ‘punished’? It’s the equivalent of the game saying ‘that content was obviously too difficult for you, here’s something easier to practice on’.

The opposite, actually. It’s the equivalent of dying on a quest boss, and returning to find it’s been made easier for you.

Saying it twice doesn’t make it two things. Also, it’s yet another false comparison. When a key loses a level, it makes the content easier, not more difficult (which is what would happen if your character lost a level).

When I came back to the game 18 months ago, after a long break, I didn’t have ANY friends who played WoW. I played at the times I had available, I did things with people who also happened to be online at that time, and I
 yes, I know this seems like a strange concept to many
 I made friends. New friends. Friends who had similar schedules to my own, and were online at the same times as me. I’m still making new friends, actually. I met a great guy the other day who is online at the same times as me, and is working towards his KSM, so we added each other as friends so we can do more keys together. I guess it’s possible that there may be a maximum number of friends a person can have, but I haven’t discovered that number, and I’m sure you haven’t either.

Once again, if you don’t want your keys depleted, make friends who are available to run keys with you.

You’ve come up with this ridiculous, convoluted system to try to solve a problem that exists for a small number of people, when you could solve your problems so much more easily by just making (more) friends.

10

This is a MMO

Its meant to be played a groups, you win together, you fail together.

This game already lost its way so much with everyone wanting everything granted for no efforts that a lot of people are disgusted with it and dont find any intencive to play it anymore.

All that blizzard did these past years is making the world easyer and easyer for what they call casual players and now you end up with a brunch of crybaby that want everything without any effort.

Go play a solo game if you dont want to be penalized by the mistakes of others.

1 Like
11

Because that level isn’t too hard for you. If it were then you never would have gotten a Keystone of that level to begin with, (unless you were boosted).

Not exactly, when you need to kill that boss on a particular level. having to kill it 2 more times in order to get it done on the level you need is not easier if you think of the time it takes away from you.

To be clear, the first pass asks if you would lose a level when levelling up and the second asks if you would lose a level from max level. Would you like to go back to being level 59 each time you die?

“it makes the content easier,” which in turn makes things far more difficult for you, because you then have to spend a lot more time to get another Keystone for the dungeon at the same level which you actually need to complete it on, for your personal progress.

I had a level 12 Halls of Atonement Keystone on my Warlock. I don’t need to do this dungeon on anything less than level 12 with this character. The tank linked his route then started pulling other things, and then blamed other people and left the group. Down to 11. So reset form another group, try again, the next tank was inexperienced and pulled things as pride was spawning
 Down to level 10. I now have a level 10 Keystone which I do not need to complete, do not want to run, and if I do run it then it will become a Keystone for a different dungeon. So I then have to go around asking people if they have a level 12 or higher keystone for this dungeon, or try to get into someone else’s group, to do it on the level which I actually need to do it on for my progress. I am sure that I would have no issues to complete that dungeon given a group of people who also can complete the dungeon on that level, providing they didn’t have some kind of issue that would cause them to leave.

My progress has been hindered like this countless times across 2 characters. The current system is very punishing, and it doesn’t matter how good I am at playing my characters. One thing goes wrong, with any of the other 4 characters and the Keystone loses a level.

Your cookie cutter answer of “find some friends” doesn’t work for everyone. Why should people be excluded from making progress in this game simply because they want to do dungeons with random players? Running dungeons with random players suits them more. They should not be punished for the failings of others.

Good for you that you can find friends.

Yes but you should not then be punished for someone else’s failings, while they suffer no consequences at all. Especially when some people (most often tanks in my experience) will look for the first excuse to blame others and quit the group.

Nobody should be losing a level off their Keystone because someone else decided to quit.

1 Like
12

Quiters are an other matter, but since blizzard decided to turn its MMO to a giant selfish solo game, peoples have no reason to remain in groups more than what they selfishly decide.

Look for the cause, not the symptoms.

13

Cause or symptom, I am not here to complain but rather to give a suggestion of how things could be improved.

I know that not everyone would agree with my suggestion, but if anyone wants to ask me to be more clear about it then I will.

I don’t want to have to explain why I came up with this idea any more than I already have done lol.

14

Symptom, leavers are a symptom.

The cause is that with the LFG tool blizzard made groups feels like trash, with the M+ timing blizzard made communication a waste of time

I dont even count the numbers of pugs where peoples dont say hello.

If you give all the tools to make peoples not having the needs to comunicate in an already self centered game, why would they even consider the others players for more than a negligible part ?

15

Do you think that having levels and XP points on the Keystones would change anything here?

16

You get it by timing a lower level key. Timing a 14 doesn’t mean you’re good enough to time a 15.

Pug life. The advice I’ve given is good. If you don’t want to take it, that’s on you.

ROFL. Do you honestly think the majority of players would understand your convoluted system? (These are the same players who are still freaking out over doing anything lower than a +14 because they think it will ‘ruin’ their vault.)

17

Nope, it wouldn’t. And suggestions are meant to improve things. Yours don’t. They take a simple system and, well, read my first reply. It’s aged well.

18

To be honest, I don’t see a great deal of difference between 14 and 15. If you have the skill to complete a dungeon on a level 10, then you have the skill to complete it on a level 20. The thing that might stop you is your item level and the numbers your stats can produce.

It’s not like the dungeons have any extra mobs at higher levels, the mobs just have higher stats. So, given equally higher stats a player should have no problem.

This myth that Mythic dungeons are extremely difficult comes from the level of exclusion bought about by dungeon score (or raider io score).

Often people will reject someone from joining them, for a certain level, if they haven’t already completed the dungeon on a much higher level. “you don’t have enough experience” is what they like to give as an excuse or reason.

I was asking this question to Hyradia, you Tyssera and Dejarous have both given your negative views towards this idea.

My suggestion would improve things. You assume that people are too stupid to understand a basic system of 10 XP points per level and the keystone keeping it’s level.

Do you, Dejarous, find this concept hard to understand?

1 Like
19

No, I don’t but convoluted systems are idiotic when simple ones will do.

And a 15 is about 15% higher than a 14, regardless of you “not seeing a difference”

20

The current system doesn’t “do” though.

WoW e-sport isn’t taken seriously. Mostly because there isn’t enough decent competition there. But how could there be any decent competition when it is always one step forward and 3 steps backwards with the current system.

Nobody should be losing levels off of their Keystones. Keystones shouldn’t be randomised as they are.

Players have a hard time making progress with the current system. The hardest part being - getting into the dungeons which they need in order to progress.

With the system I suggest, players would easily find other players who have the same level Keystone to work together with, even in random groups.