A suggestion for what to consider for 10.0.7 Ret Paladin Changes

Classes Paladin
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Hi,

I would like to add my idea for the ret paladin remake of 10.0.7. The idea is simple:

  • Make Retribution Paladin a counter to the melee steamroll strategy.

So how do we go about this? I know a lot of people want Paladin’s to get more mobility, and more gap closers, but I am afraid we end up as an Arms Warrior or Frost DK with yellow lights.

This is an RPG so I would like to make classes unique and I have an idea for Paladin:

New Paladin Philosophy:

  • A strong and sturdy protector of light, an anti melee fighter and a team supporter. A winner of attrition.

Paladins can be the answer to this melee heavy meta, by providing a class that doesnt chase down others, but instead provide a reason for melee to reconsider mindless steamrolling. A class that forces other melee to think carefully as to how they approach. A brilliant protector to enable casters, and to provide casters more space in the Arena. A class that can counter burst damage and provide survivability. Let paladin be what you bring to a 2v2 or a 3v3 fight when you want to slow down the match and win on attrition. When you need a supportive team player for grouping up to capture Blacksmith in Arathi Basin or when you need a supportive melee to help defend Waterworks in Battle for Gilneas.

The game has enough high mobility high damage melee. We need Retribution Paladins to be something else.

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They have tried with BoP for 18+ years and even BoSac. Or do you mean like Monks karma but castable on other team players… kinda linke a stonger BoSac or RoP, but ofc without monks mobility.

No idea how you would make anything anti melee secific without making it anti dmg in general.

Anything new gets added to new classes like the monk example above + added unstoppable mobility. Why should ret stick with the unmobile aspect when none else does as YOU are sick of everyone having mobility but this ONE single class should not?

All new ideas will be kept for future classes like always, be it utility wise or mobiliy. Hell the 2 latest classes have usuable wings while we got stuck with the cosmetic version since TBC. All flavour, no substance!

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Apologies, my idea was not to attack paladins. I love ret paladin, it is my favorite alt. My wish is to make Paladin’s as fun as possible!

One way is to make Consecration do much more damage, and perhaps heal friendly characters standing in it. Right now, in PvP, it doesnt do anything except prevent Rogue’s from Garroting you. If it could be used to secure a zone for some time, then healers/casters can walk into it to secure casting, and enemies have to consider the heavy damage they will take if they enter the Consecration area.

Another way is to make Retribution Paladin’s apply a stacking debuff to the enemy, that reduces their melee damage done, again to increase attrition. Since DK is considered antimagic melee, Retribution Paladin could be made to be the antimelee class.

With these two additions, you can secure areal with Consecration and you can reduce melee burst and melee damage of opponent, both strong abilities that are different to chase and kill, and which makes Paladin’s strong as a duelist class, while also providing a class that forces other melee chase and kill classes to play around it. I feel like this would help casters in a melee heavy PvP meta.

I think this fits the Retribution Paladin lore wise. We are THE class that focus on Vengeance, so by being a reactive class, we follow the lore of Paladin’s reacting to evil in the world.

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Many ppl dissliked the very heavy focus of consecration this expansion brought, in pve it does quite a fair bit of dmg atm and it can also heal so this is nothing new. Its far to short range to be of any real threat to a rogue and even then, dont you still have the 3 sec rule?

And what classes would this effect, Warriors and…? Most classes do magic dmg, Rogues, Rets, Shamans, DKs, DHs and… Monks? This is why BoP is so ineffective, sure it can stop a rogue stun but not blind and the list goes on. Well BoP is great for dispelling a monks Karma tho ill give you that.

Remember Ashen Hallow from SL? Essentially a jacked up Consecration that could have been nice if it didnt have an extreamly long CD and cast time. If that was the consecration they were going for now on a more reasonable CD and no cast time then maybe it would be helpfull. But nothing of the above you said would make Ret anti melee. Pure melee attacks are very neiche in this game. Rets have only 2 physical attacks and neither of them are our heavy hitters.

How would you sort out melee attacks but not make the debuff effect magic dmg from all classes?

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I can see your point. Regarding this, we have in the Talent Tree but most Assassination Rogue’s dont specc into it, because we lose too much by doing so.

This is a good point. How to do it is a question of Development, but I am sure a way can be found. I know my Numbing Poison specifically mentions attack speed and casting speed, so it should be possible to code it to only affect abilities that Require Melee Weapons, or do as Numbing Poison and make it reduce attack speed only, however with the current format, reduced attack speed wont do much to the spamming of global cooldowns. Perhaps make melee attacks of the Retribution Paladin apply an aura that reduces damage taken by you and team mates closeby by X% stacking up to N times.

Again, I am just brainstorming here, ideas that could make the Paladin feel vastly different to the standard melee class. :slight_smile:

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But how would you even word it to make sense as a description never mind the coding.

Why would it lower the dmg done from a DKs frost spells but not a Mages? A Rogues/DKs shadow spells but not shadow priest? A DHs fell dmg but not a locks? A Rets holy dmg but not a Hpala or Priest? On and on it goes.

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No your right we shouldnt end up carbon copies of these other classes.

But rets mobility also sucks due to no CC removal on use, we want ret to have a solid founding design so we can feel meaningful and impactful

Also I want seals and judgements back.

When i say this i aint talkong on anyone elses behalf. I personally want them back

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I feel like we are talking as if I am suggesting the ability for cars to fly if we give them wings, and you are questioning even how that would be possible.

Difference here is that WoW is completely human-made. I work as a programmer / Software Engineer, and often it is just a question if its possible to implement within a reasonable timeframe.

They changed spells to reflect spell schools (arcane, frost, shadow, nature, etc), and they also included the distinction between single target and area of effect damage. They can also implement the distinction between melee and ranged damage. There is nothing magical about this, its just a question of implementing it as rules. They have all the data ingame to do it. The range between a target and a source is measured at all times, to determine if you are within range. You can use this calculation to determine if the target was hit by a melee source or a ranged source, and IF it is a melee source, THEN the damage is reduced.

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Id say it would be possible butt here is no reason to have flying cars if one thinks about it for more then a second.

New rules and infrastructure would be needed to not make everything chaotic and the danger in having them in the first place when accidents happens or even worse whe used or crimes or terrorism. Would they even bennefit us to begin with in any way? The room and extra space they would need to exist for commercial use and again the list goes on.

… So are cars?

Because reflecting an aoe spell would be rather pointless and the coding was there from day one in wow with how grounding totem workes?.. Are you really a programmer? Im not but i know enough to know this.

If you cant even word it in the skill description on this debuff would work i highly doubt you could code it.

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I think I explained myself not well enough, because you didnt understand it the way I had hoped to, so let me elaborate :slight_smile:

I was actually trying to explain Planes from the perspective of the Wright Brothers. The car is about 25-30 years younger than the plane, so people would know about cars without knowing about planes, hence the flying cars.

Airplanes would need to follow the laws of physics, thus making the discussion an engineering problem in terms of what is physically possible. WoW only needs to follow the rules of electronics and programming logic. That was what I was trying to say, but I recognize I was not specific enough in my description.

Yes I am a programmer. It is not as hard as you think. And yes, some spells had the description back then, and in the same manner, some spells now do have range limits (aka melee requires you to be in range), in modern wow they have then expanded AoE to be a keyword used many more places, and in the same manner, you can expand melee vs ranged.

Basically, whenever you target someone and press a skill, you are running through code that is calculating a plethora of things. This includes if you have resources to use it, if the spell is on cooldown and if you are within range. Since we can determine if you are in range or not, this must be a value. Let us call it L. Code on range could (in pseudo code) look like this:

ActiveSpell = Spell_5
Distance = distance between source and target
RangeSpell_5 = 8

If Distance <= RangeSpell_5
In range, spell activates
Else
Out of range, activate “out of range” sound.

Thus you could just add something like

MeleeLimit = 2

If Distance <= MeleeLimit
TypeSpell_5 = Melee
Else
TypeSpell_5 = Range

Then you can add Melee and Range as keywords to abilities, aka “Reduce Melee Damage taken”. It is applied above because we can always find from the code what TypeSpell it has been set to. (this is not actual wow code, its pseudo code)

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Ill give you list of Ret melee abilities

  • Crusader strike (physical dmg) *and not effect holy palas dmg

  • Templars Verdict (holy dmg)

  • Justicars Vengance (holy dmg)

  • Unsure if Divine Storm (holy dmg) would count as melee, especially its ranged talent part.

  • Sheild of Vengeance (holy dmg) Same as above

  • I have no idea where to put Consecration (holy dmg) in this *and not effect holy palas dmg

Ranged abilities

  • Hammer of wrath (holy dmg 30 yards) *and not effect holy palas dmg
  • Judgment (holy dmg 30 yards) *and not effect holy palas dmg
  • Blade of justice (physical dmg 12 yards)
  • Final Verdict (holy dmg 10 yards)
  • Final Reckoning (holy dmg 30 yards)
  • Execution Sentence (holy dmg 30 yards)
  • Divine toll (holy dmg 30 yards) *and not effect holy palas dmg
  • Wake of Ashes/ Radiant Decree (holy dmg 12 yards)

Then add talents like Seal of the Templar that adds 3 yards to CS and TV/FV.
Fiarly sure rogues have a better version of this in their talent tree even that adds AA into the mix.

And that was just the list of Rets “melee” dmg, now code the other classes ^^

Edit: Added the “*and not effect holy palas dmg”

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