To be fair continuation of that is when Thrall visits Tyrande and she says she doesnt trust them one bit, not only Sylvanas but whole Horde needs to make amends to them.
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So, we are AT PEACE, we are all recovering after a big blow. Let us attack you, so we can have a lasting peace? Nice logic.
After Teldrassil, Nightborne should have severed all ties with Horde. Not help them burn Stormwind down.
Do you realize that the devs thinks that we are 6 years cildren?
Really? Who attacked Suramar?
The Argument Sylvanas made was pretty convincing from an in universe standpoint:
We’re at peace, but it will not hold because of old grudges.
Just look at Genn at Stormheim.
If we let the Alliance decide when and where to attack, we will lose.
Let’s attack them and force them to fight by our rules and make it a quick war instead of having a big one down the line.
Genn basically gave her the best argument on a golden plate. He attacked the Horde for personal reasons when literally the end of the world was happening.
Do you think the Alliance would have stopped after Lordaeron when nobody fought back? They were out for blood and the Nightborne were part of the Horde at that point.
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Mainly amends by delivering what it is owed.
And that is not only Sylvanas head, from what I got from that part was that the reputation is completely wrecked and Tyrande was the voice of those Alliance players who scream “How many times?” At least I hope they keep that arc on them.
As well Turalyon /Alleria not shying away using agressive methods to get what they need. It surely is looking better, but still overall its a linear story telling.
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I know the idea. Stupid, but let’s say it works with orcs. I really expected the BE to know better, but as I said, we have to accept that everybody is retarded in this game.
But we were talking about nightborne. Right now, Aliance had no beef with them, even after they joined Horde. So why don’t they give a reason, right?
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Given these Draenei weren’t even from Draenor/Outland, and the first time they ever met an orc was on Argus during Legion, i don’t see why would them make any difference.
The only reason they joined the Alliance over the Horde, is based around the same idea that explains why Highmountain decided to join the Horde over the Alliance.
And:
Why? For most of the Horde the war was intended to settle grudges that had been left unaswered for a long time.
And once they discovered the true motivations behind Sylvanas actions, they all decided to dump her and hunt her down (alongside anyone that remained loyal to her).
Has the Alliance made ANY attempt at fixing what THEY damaged in this war? Why should this be a onesided sort of deal?.
As far as the truce goes, both sides should be shown willing to mend said relation . Because as far as the lore goes, and the events that actually mattered for the characters involved, it was the ALLIANCE the ones that breached the last truce (actions that served to get the Horde going and start the WoT).
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Unfortunately Yes.
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Don’t argue with alliance players. They will never be satisfied. Next war we will wipe them out like they deserve it. The blue team will never win as long as we fight for Horde.
Indeed. The pile of crap that is this story will be so much easier to stomach once we accept this simple but universal truth.
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That is a vague scene, from Alliance perspective they had info about Sylvanas’ on going in Stormheim if that’s what you mean. Secondly I think yes Anduin and co are doing alot to fix the gap, but I do not see why should Night Elves or even Dwarves should do anything to fix it. After all Night Elves were the unprovoked victims of WoT.
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You are too generous. It was more or less clear where it goes by 8.2 patch. The devs did not last even for a full expansion.
Why not? I mean, if most of the alliance is ok with giving a shot to a peace, why not take full advantage of it?
It only makes sense IMO if you’re willing to accept the way authors portray it. If we step a bit aside, it turns out that Anduin since MoP is the main pro-peace character and doing what Sylvanas suggested is like undermining the peace and giving tools to those, who want to push conflict.
There would be provocations, attempt to spread misinformations, etc. If anything, the key to peace would be establishing connections with Anduin. Step by step - that would work. How could people buy the explanations that to get peace you need to “backstab” the main pro-peace character - not sure.
With Anduin - yup. Not doubt about it. After seeing him in Legion and a little bit in BfA I am certain he is willing to sacrifice alliance forces for that goal.
They are literally likeminded parts of the same race. As they learn about the story of draenei and their hardships, what would be a decision of those, who embodies light’s wraith? Besides, who are the main “light worshipers”? Light is way more common in the alliance. Even as a religion. So, culture, history, common ancestry, common goals and views - all bind lightforged to the alliance overall and draenei specifically.
Oh, come on. I mean, if you want for whatever reason to look at it seriously, how likely that Derek story is viewed as a more relevant thing than the tree? Which is more featured in the story? Which pushed the events according to desires of the devs? It did not happen up until it was convenient.
I mean, if the horde wants to show that they are not working just toward the destruction of things, what would be a better way that to go in another direction? Like, think about it. Night elves cleared Bashal’aran from the blight. I am not sure, but is there a race in the horde with a blighted territory problem?
Oh, night elves are known for their ties with nature, grow forests, etc. I wonder if any horde race ever had problems with lumber, or would want to fix Barrens, or regrow trees in Durotar and turn it into a prosperous territory.
Indeed, there is totally nothing to “buy” by doing it.
But I tried to be kind of logical, for some definition of “logical”. How the devs see the story - who knows.
Alliance did not start it, which makes this question a bit “meh”. But do you think that the alliance would deny the suggestion? (assuming rational approach)
We have a push from the forsaken side (Calia at the very least) plus human side (Anduin, with some approval of Turalyon and Genn) to be closer.
Jaina is in Kirin Tor. Long time neutral organisation pushing to peace. Would they deny working on the ancient magical secrets of nightborne? Draenei are hungry for knowledge and talented in arcane. Same interest is with gnomes and knowledge.
What I mean is, there is a lot that the alliance (if we try to analyze it) could be interested in, so cooperation is not impossible IMO. Now, is this the story the devs think would be interesting - I don’t know.
Me poking fun at silliness of a part of the story does not mean it must end there, and horde must be sad, and turn themselves into slaves. But if the horde started the situation, it would make sense to seek for ways to ease the tension. And those who supported peace could follow. Maybe. Depends on what the devs want.
Yeah, although there is one side who clearly started the mess, and one side clearly suffered and need some care and grooming to open up again. The one who suffered has no obligations to try to push toward the fixing the stuff.
I mentioned it a bit earlier in this post. When you have just Anduin doing all he can to move to peace, some tolerance to provocations is necessary. And sending delegates to the opposing factions maybe? Like, doing stuff together, etc. I mean, that’s how I see it. Maybe cooperation and patience kind of help?
gl hf
Ok, mon.
gl hf
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By most you mean Anduin and maybe Jaina. No dwarves or Draenei have ever given their two cents about it.
As of Night Elves they seemingly have lost all faith and rightly so. Chances were given to Horde and their mistakes are always blamed on their Warchieves or anyone who goes bad, when whole Faction jumps on murder spree when the opportunity arises. Yes, there are some unresolved issues to be closed and that will need time, no one says it cant be fixed but from “unfriendly” rep I’d say.
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what on earth do they need justice for, hell if either of the new nations need justice its Zandalar.
But as for the night elves i dont think anymore revenge will help, as someone who used to play Horde when bfa came out i was hoping that the Alliance would be the aggressors this time but nope the Horde is once again forced into following a crazed leader down a stupid path and for what? oh sure now we see she had some big plan but at the time it seemed she was just insaine and doing it because some night elf pissed her off.
I dont want another war simply because its never done well and neither side comes off better, the Horde looses all sence of morality untill its to late and the Alliance gets genocided and even when they tried to even it out in BFA we got the Alliance’s stupid plan to attack Zandalar and arrest a King who was considering joining the Horde, the result which only pushed them into the camp.
No, they didn’t. They couldn’t.
Azsuna doesn’t mash with her arrival in Stormheim because her fleet hadn’t left yet. And once it did, it was automatically attacked by Genn and the 7th Legion.
Also, at no point did Genn or Anduin express their concern regarding said events. Anduin ordered surveillance, and Genn decided to take it a step further and launch said attack.
Not once are said events referenced.
Why should the Horde need to prove anything anymore than the Alliance?
As far as the Horde is concerned, yes, they did.
When they launched an unprovoked attack against the Hord Warchief in Stormheim.
Or at least, they gave several Horde segments enough reasons to doubt the credibility of any truce they make.
Why would the Horde want to sign peace if they feel that the Alliance will dump it for their own personal reasons when they feel like it?
Yeah, as far as the Horde is concerned, the Alliance has to prove the worth of their word in this armistice.
The Horde didn’t “start” it. They had enough reasons to call on the bs on the armistice as soon as the Alliance attempted to kill their head of state during a ceasefire.
The Horde is only guilty of being railroaded into all of this, by someone with malicious ulterior motives. And they already made amendments regarding such by dumping those that supported said motives.
They have zero additional obligations to fix anything else.
Unless we started demanding the Alliance payed for what they did against the Horde in this war.
I think there are transcripts available. Edit:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Price_of_Peace
Shandris Feathermoon:
Although the Kaldorei suffered greatly in this war, it is time for us to heal and rebuild.Muradin Bronzebeard:
Peace with the Horde?
I’d be lyin’ if I told ye that I trust 'em after all they’ve done…
But who knows? Maybe with the Banshee Queen gone, they’ll finally be able tae live peacefully.Moira Thaurissan:
What matters now is how we move forward! Do we learn somethin’ from all o’ the bloodshed an’ loss, or do we keep on repeatin’ the past?Falstad Wildhammer:
Ach, well, it’s worth a shot I guess. I can forgive… but a Wildhammer never forgets!
Velen always was pro-peace, and lightforged would follow. Genn focuses on Sylvanas and kind of got over the hate toward even forsaken. Both Genn and Turalyon supported the idea of the Gathering, so I do not think they would backpedal.
gl hf
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That is no has nothing to do with the plan though, orders might have been given way earlier then their departure.
introduction quest to stormheim says they have sensitive information about Sylvanas ongoings. Also nowhere in WoT has Stormheim coupe has been mentioned even once, only reasoning behind her campaign was old hatreds. Not a single member of Horde rallied behind that cause.
You get the point.
This is very vague of what she might mean. She also references old mistakes.
Open to discussion on their terms it seems.
They are pretty split, or wary.
The answer is in the quote. If they want to get over the events, step #1 is to accept that 
happens. The horde once again showed that they are not trust worthy. Logically, if they would want to gain trust, that would require some effort. It’s up to the horde to decide if they want to regain it and go closer to how close they [sides of the conflict] were after the 3rd war. And act accordings.
So, “have to” - no. I see it as reasonable idea. Maybe others think that if someone causes troubles, then there is no reason to try to fix what was broken after. Different people have different opinions. It all depends on which direction is desireable, long term.
I told about provocations and that they are not avoidable. There is a lot of bad blood, and without effort to go in a different direction, it won’t fix itself. Not unless everyone involved dies on both sides.
Depends on what is the desireable destination. If the peace is wanted - show that attempts to start a conflict are futile / ineffective, and there would not be a full invasion or any really big confrontation; at the same time support and empower sides who works toward peace and cooperation.
It does not mean drop all military training / research, but those are not mutually exclusive things.
Given that the horde started the 4th, that is a dead end. Either horde members who supported Sylvanas after the tree™ part would actively push to show what they want a different outcome, or they can show that they don’t care. Like, on US forums, which are way more active than EU, it’s hard to find even horde players who thinks that the alliance agression would not be justified and a reasonable thing to do after the 4th war.
So, yeah. I do not think the horde should start hating itself or anything, but there are ways to have a cake and eat it too. It’s possible to pretend to look well and get benefits out of it.
If you say so.
Anduin was surrounded with those who wants to push to war. Of course there would be different small scale confrontations. Like Warsong Gulch scale. Did not cause the war in Classic. So, if peace is really wanted, not on paper but in practice - support peace, and be ready to defend if needed.
Well, the problem is also in those who stood by Sylvanas’s side after the “stuff” hitted the fan, aka during the Undercity battle.
I did not a single time said about “obligations”. I am talking about where the story IMO could be taken should the horde wish to actually build and cement the peace and cooperation for mutual benefits.
Now, if that is not desireable - whatever. After all I have no idea how the devs see the story.
Depends on the details of what you mean. But I am sure, fixing blighted territories and helping to fix Durotar would be helpful. Plus, Jaina pushes to peace, so, IMO it would be reasonable for her to formally adress the events with zandalari, as well as Dalaran one from MoP time.
I mean, she wants peace, so it’s reasonable to expect put the effort where her words are.
gl hf
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Sure. They are willing to give it a shot. So, taking advantage of this mood to surround Tyrande by those who would rather prefer peace seems like a good idea for the horde. Opportunities are there [in a sense that… the alliance seems not to be openly opposing the idea, so that is a good start after all what happened]. At least that’s what it looks like to me. But I could misunderstand things.
gl hf