I see more discussion in game here and there, add that to the cinematics and general story development and it’s got me wondering,
Do you think that Sylvanas is enough? More particular characters/races? The entire Horde?
I aim this specifically at the Alliance side, because from the this side, there was an unprovoked genocide. On the Horde side, it appears that they were betrayed by their leader, but I will leave that to another thread.
From my perspective, playing early BfA, there were plenty of races on the Horde side partaking in the genocide. Particularly I remember the blood elves - with the forsaken, throwing out vicious insults, and taking delight in killing night elves. That looked like they were enjoying it. This is part why I can’t accept that Sylvanas alone is responsible. I also note that the worgen have had their home destroyed twice because of Sylvanas.
To seek justice, should the night elves leave the Alliance? That would allow the Alliance races who might want peace, to have it, while the night elves can continue.
No, but seriously… why leave the Alliance, when they can just act and see what the Alliance lets them do? You only leave once they try to force you to stop.
depends on how wild tyrande goes, she obviously wants to kill sylvanas but after that she might become a tyrant herself if shes on a never ending quest to kill all the horde
Why would there ever be peace in something called World of WarCraft? What would be fun about it? Ok we are at peace now, instead of killing disgusting greenskins we’ll just send angry letters to each other. And if it’s not fun, then why do it all? I don’t need deep moral lessons from a game, let alone from a game written by half-insane californians.
If it was up to me, I’d revamp Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor in a way that would be akin to WoW classic, but with more A vs H skirmishes. Ashenvale, Hillsbrad or Gilneas, let’s fight the greenskins and their servants wherever they show their ugly heads.
If not that, then let’s fight them on whatever new continent we find on Azeroth or beyond. Just don’t remove the factions and I’ll be content.
I think the night elves should take it as far as they can without risking the remnants of their people.
This means total, and never ending, war with the entire Orcish Horde, Forsaken Empire and their thralls. Yes, there might be, and certainly will be, luls in combat to recuperate losses and rebuild demolished areas, but even Shandris Feathermoon, the most moderate of the High Priestess’ advisers, wishes to continue the war after their people have repopulated and rebuild, unlike her High Priestess.
Why would, or even should, the night elves do this? Because the Horde has proven three times now they are unwilling, or unable, to contain their aggressive, destructive, nature and because they have commited two genocides in the lifetime of one of their race and were more then willing to aid in commiting a thord genocide.
(Also, as is in their breaker nature, they have shown a tendency to change any landscape they inhabit into a desolate wasteland with no forests, but thats god-tier knowledge ingame)
I would like to see Night Elves cutting all ties or any presence of the Horde from their lands after Sylvanas is dealt with, jumping right back to old tension mode where they do not trust Horde no longer and won’t have their presence in their lands, so fight for Ashenvale and even Azshara begins. Trying to isolate Orgrimmar from resources while Turalyon will start assaulting forsaken lands in EK in hope to reclaim Lordaeron and Gilneas. Having some actual conflict between Anduin supporters and Turalyons.
Basically I was that peace treaty to go in flames and that to be done from Alliance side so Horde can once again have the defending side.
They kind of asked that in the “Old Soldier”. Saurfang is guilty he never denied it, he wants to keep walking. Is Zekhan guilty too? He deserves the same punishment as Saurfang? I think not. The kids at the orphanage where he goes and tell them stories?
There is also the
issue of capability to seek justice. What’s the point to seek justice and end up destroying yourself? As the war played out i don’t think Alliance is in position to destroy the Horde.
Finally, the purpose of the war was to feed the hungering darkness, why should Alliance continue doing what Sylvanas wants? Is she the enemy or not? Luckily for us Saurfang and Anduin realized soon enough that the war must be stoped.
1). Not only Night Elves seek justice. Gilneas also does. And I guess many people from KulTiras and Theramor also got something to say.
“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.” — Daelin
2). I can hear many npc says that they are tired from war. Those are Night Elves Sentinels. While others say that they will never rest until they will kill Sylvanas.
Tyrande also told that she will have a peace with the Horde, when Sylvanas will die.
So, why Night Elves should leave the Alliance? There are no reasons. In fact Tyrande already will have not official peace with the Horde in the Ardenwild.
Whether or not that matters depends on the devs paying attention to the feedback.
The entirety of the “faction conflict” was a mess that neither side seems to enjoy all that much. Going through all the holes in the story is an exercise in frustration and I think we already have a good summary on US forums.
There are many more things to add, but that thread is depressing enough to call the main story line of BfA an utter failure that would be laughed at should someone try to present in with 1 to 1 accuracy in a cinema format.
Now, if we would think logically, it seems clear, that those who fought for Sylvanas during the battle for Undercity can not be called innocent. And the suggestions from the horde side in Shadows Rising, limiting all options to killing some horde, is laughable. Since the reasonable approach (IMO), should the horde actually wish to ment the relationship, would be to actively participate in fixing what was damaged. Which is not that they are doing iirc.
The story went in a direction of showing that no matter what Anduin and Jaina must be portrayed as right™. So, since there is peace, I would say, focus on rebuilding things, get stronger, forge stronger alliance, and be crystal clear where the loyalties within the faction lies. So that next time we get a suggestion to unite with the horde, those suggesting it would be explisitly marked as betrayers.
And it would be nice not to lose opportunities to rub into Thalyssra and Mayla that after help from the alliance during the Legion invasion, they chose to repay with siding with one of factions and close the gates for another. Just as not treating Baine, Lor’themar, Saurfang [not a potential enemy, but calling him honourable or anything from the alliance side IMO is completely out of place], or Thrall as anything other than potential enemies.
But it is me talking about the theoretical WoW. Which is not going to happen anyway, because the pillar of the game is “we must be united to face yet another big bad”. And there are those moralizing comments like the phrase of Khadgar, that after Garrosh was killed all the other questionable actions should be forgotten, and it is the only right way to go.
The Thing is: The Lightforged Draenei and Mechagnomes did the same.
I think they all would have worked better as a Pandaren-Style Neutral Race with a choose your side-Quest in the beginning.
Tyrande is a character that already has as a part of her story “any evil can be forgiven” (her inviting Alexstrasza in War Crimes), so I would not expect anything other than empty threats just like from worthless Jaina.
Because the core of the game is “we can only win together”, “we need each other”, etc. Which renders the idea of a conflict worthless untill there will be some kind of canonical division in which faction defeat which bosses, and we move to the game officially declaring that factions do not need each other, but do their own thing in their own way.
Problem isn’t what is fun in it (and it would be possible to keep all the elements we have even without a rigid only-2-faction approach). Problem is inability of the current team to execute a good faction conflict story. Both Garrosh and BfA stories largely considered disappointing and anti-climactic (seriously, I do not know many people who would consider BfA and WoD to be pinnacle of WoW experience, even though there are some interesting small stories here and there).
Dismantling the current factions does not mean that different nations cannot make new temporary alliances in a covenant-like way, that could also have it’s own conflicts, tension, etc. There are plenty of things to fight for, be it an ideological reason, resource, tragic misunderstanding, or something else.
The game is full of it, telling what is right and how you should feel. Khadgar blaming Jaina in Legion for not forgiving all the horde the moment Garrosh died. That MoP scene with a moralizing panda telling to Wrathion that the alliance need the horde, and it is any good only because of the horde. Chronicles stating that the common theme is “finding a commong humanity in each other”. Bolvar in the upcoming ICC meeting stating that we must stand together and no other opinion allowed.
I mean, yes. On paper I think faction conflict could be an interesting thing. But… can the current dev team make it decent - that is a big question. IMO not while we have a game portraying one side as having a clearly correct answer.
Was there any expectation that they could by any chance join the faction with orcs over other draenei?
Sorry, did not unlock those yet, so can’t say anything.
But overall, I do not see why not. Sure thing it would not be bad if the horde would complain that the lightforged stood to defend their kind after the assault of the horde.
Elves - maybe. Both kinds. And maybe we could finally get over the questions related to high elves alongside with it.
Draenei - not going to work.
Tauren and nightborne overall seem to be way more fitting culturally with their horde counterparts so far. But it does not mean that it can’t be played as a form of diplomatic pressure.
Was there any expectation for the Highmountain-Tauren to join the Alliance over a faction with other Tauren?
And when you do the Quests in Suramar you have the open, understanding Bloodelves with very similar experiences representing the Horde, and the arrogant, judgemental, and very impolite Nightelves representing the Alliance.
From their view it was obvious to join the Horde in my oppinion.
But i guess Blizz thought mostly:
Magic Elves to the Magic Elves, Antler Cows to the Cows, Robot-Gnomes to the Gnomes, Glowy Space Goats to the slightly less glowy Space Goats.
Does that mean that the alliance did not help their cause?
Is being mean is a good enough reason to join the war? Maybe I missed the part when they opposed the idea to Sylvanas or others. Or when they tried to separate themselves from the rest after the tree™ story.
Yes, but I helped them to continue their existence and I want to have an option to be extra poisonous about it in my dialogue options.
Putting a pressure on Malfurion to pick either night elves or cenarion circle could be interesting.
But I think that being a “neutral” organisation in WoW overall should have at least some consequences, and not be portrayed as the correct approach.
Now, that is a battle that have to be fought diplomatically. Since Turalyon approved the idea of the meeting of undead and living lordaeronians, so I do not think he would openly sabotage the efforts of Calia and Anduin on a path to a potential reunion.
I think the point is not in having heads on spikes. The point IMO is not to let those who fought [for Sylvanas at Undercity] after Teldrassil to think that their presence in Undercity would be forgotten.
But who am I kidding, the game won’t go in that direction.
If we take all the events of the main BfA plot line - yes, somehow after defeating the horde on 2 warfronts and getting extra soldiers from the horde the alliance is weaker. And other ignored things.
So, this is where these discussion IMO fall apart. We try to argue logically based on what we know. But the devs just pick characters and events to make things convenient. Which is not the same kind of logic.
Because it only looks that way once we factor in game going in convenient directions ignoring logic? If the horde is visibly become unable to fulfil Sylvanas’s goal to kill the alliance to raise them, that’s the end already, as she can’t possibly win. Now, moving goal post because the devs did not want to tell that story does not mean that there potentially could not be other equally viable options.
There are already hints that she had her reasons to do so. From https://screenrant.com/wow-shadowlands-interview-steve-danuser-world-warcraft/
we see how swiftly the functions and norms within each of these realms began to break down. Such a rapid unraveling should raise the question of how healthy that system was to begin with.
In the Shadowlands, nothing is exactly what it appears to be at first glance. You must always look deeper.
So, here you go.
I would consider myself lucky if either Anduin or Jaina would not return from Shadowlands. Seeing how the expansion is sold to me with warbringers: Jaina only to see her touching Thrall is what I would consider a bull shot.
On the other hand it is interesting how BfA was mirrored in the forums, especially Horde side. The intro created hype and support for the war, Teldrasil created doubts but there was still support, “Horde is nothing” left Sylvanas with minimal supporters. For Alliance side it was mainly the op question.
I can understand that they aligned with the sympathetic ones instead of the mean others. What I don’t understand is why they are ok with the genocide of their people. Yes, Tyrande was “mean” to them (not without reason), but that does not mean they ceased to be the same people. I can understand that some blood elves can hav a grudge that ey were banished from kalimdor (not without reason), but NE did nothing to nightborne.
As far as i remember there where no Nightborne present during the Invasion of Darkshore and the burning of Teldrassil, and if so, they were there under the Premise of fast invasion to force a lasting peace, just as everyone else except Sylvanas.
And after that it was mostly a fight for Survival until the Planning for the Rebellion was done.
This faction conflict was silly because it was done for one expansion with a definite end and we all know how WoW handles such matters. The faction conflict has been ongoing since Vanilla till MoP happened, it has been ongoing theme with small bits of side quests, which adds flavor to the conflict itself and some reasoning to facitons.
Why would Night Elves or Alliance in general look for a fix at this point though?
Malf has never taken the leadership mantle of their people, he is far too wild for politics and such I think. And Cenarion Circle as they have been portrayed as utter ignorant pushovers in BFA should have more say in things like balance of nature and so forth.
My personal wish is to have Maiev in charge for a bit at least.
Yes, there was a quest after killing Nzot, where Tyrande told that she will not going to sight up peace treaty with the Horde. After that, outside of that building, all leaders has some speaches that you can listen.
Tyrande talks with Shandris, and tells that she will not sight up peace treaty while Sylvanas is alive.
So, Sylvanas is the only target for Tyrande. Not the Horde.
