Sooooo… Void is good now, Titans are bad? Am I missing something?
I had to sleep on this post for a couple nights as it’s a big mashed potato in my head and still is a big mashed potato. I know, that the Chronicles are Titan “biased”, also we shouldn’t attach mortal morality to cosmic forces as something being good or bad is subjective, however.
Are we missing the point that no cosmic force cares about us? Blaming the Titans for their own agenda (hatching Azeroth under the influence of Order to avoid the worlds’ end), blaming them for “lying” to us, etc makes me question whether we are in an illusion already or not. Old Gods had time to infest our World Soul for millennia, “killing” them won’t make a difference, see Y’Shaarj. Why is working against the Titans is the better option, which would help the OG-s to poison Azeroth?
Our planet probably would be destroyed once she’s over her slumber, IF she ever wakes up. She’s still bleeding from two, very serious injuries, one of them is mined by mortals just to get stronger. But it’s a mortal thing to do to use whatever material you have on your hands to survive.
What I’m trying to say is: besides Life and Death, no cosmic force cares about us, we are all little gears in a gigantic clock that’s slowly moving forward. Why is everything suddenly a lie now?
More like neutral, with its own agenda, with itself, from a certain point of view, could be considered “bad”
Again ,depends whom you ask
Exactly
pretty mutch, yeah
But really, depends who you ask
From the Primalist and Incarnates point, yeah, Order and the Titans are just as bad as the Void
Or Chaos and the Legion
Is there a truth in it?
Yes
What do you want to do with this “truth”?
It is up to you
EDIT:
Actually this is not “new lore”’
Since what, Wrath of the Lich King we know the Titans installed facilites on the Planet and one with the sole reason to wipe out every and all life on Azeroth if necessary + appointed a Constellar the observe and watch over the world and activate the Forge of Origination if he deemed necessary
Loyal Titan worshipper or servant, or the creation of the Titans?
No matter
Die
For the greater good
Not really a “good boy move”
The idea is to introduce more morally gray™ by divorcing good and bad from their color scheme, I guess. You’re totally right, dominion of any power is the end of mortal life and/or will, and thus a bad thing from our perspective. We don’t want that, so anyone who actively strives for dominion of their chosen magic color is a bad guy, no matter if its Sargeras, N’zoth, Odyn or Xe’ra. But “the powers” aren’t necessarily controlling a hivemind, nor are we sure that they have a mind at all, so not everyone who stems from them or follows them to some degree has to go all the way, and Tyrr might be a more moderate order guy than Odyn, for example.
Now, the idea that the “good guys” might not have our best interests at heart, but rather an agenda of their own isn’t really a new one. Especially the Titans were very clearly established as emotionally pretty uncaring, with world-ending kill-switches in a lot of their projects.
The inverse on the other hand is where I see the problems here. Not only haven’t Fel or Void servant characters and their ilk been established as good guys, the lore behind their powers makes that really hard. While “how much Order is the right amount” and “how paternalistic should we be for the greater good” are reasonable conflicts, “how much mind-devouring void is good for us” and “how much arbitrary destruction is nexessary” isn’t exactly a good building block for likable characters. I guess they will either make them the enemy of our enemy, since they stand against the oppression of the zealous servants of Order and Light… or they will redefine the forces behinbd them, as they have already started to do by making the void all about “possibilities” and “freedom”…
But for now they have just teased that part, and haven’t developed it further. We’ll probably see more of that soon enough.
All in all I don’T actually have a problem with what they have done to this point. It would be nice if the philosophy was deeper than “good and bad are matters of perspective, maaan… We need a balance of perspectives, dude!”, but it is a classic, and I shouldn’t expect too much depth from WoW…
That doesn’t mean that I don’t expect them to royally ruin it sooner rather than later, because that’s what they usually do.
Yes, I know this part, and to be fair I do understand their view for the “greater good”. I’m actually surprised why this mechanism wasn’t activated when Sargeras pushed his pinkie toe through the Well of Eternity. If it’s a fail safe mechanism, why it’s never been activated before Yoggi’s prison was visited by “godlike adventurers”? I honestly wish he’d just F the mortals and press the button.
I’ve read some people’s opinion about this and apparently it’s something that makes the Void better than the Light. However, I couldn’t find anything on this, and I was especially interested in this “the Void gives free will” which kinda sounded like Naruto’s Tsukuyomi, where the person enters an illusion as the perfect world. True, in that story, you have no free will apparently and I do think neither the Void actually gives anyone free will. As a servant of something, there’s no total freedom, but this is my opinion.
I shouldn’t expect either I think I just want to know how it all ends, but maybe ignorance is a blessing in regards of the lore.
Well, the best example would probably be the timeline thing. Order and Light forces both try to force one “true” timeline to happen, while the Void supposedly is pretty much ok with any possibility and just uses whatever happens. The Light keeps its followers blind to other options through one-sided prophecy, the Titans straight-up established a time police that accepts any catastrophe, as long as it is planned. There can be reasonable opposition to both from the Void camp.
But generally? Yeah, it’s pretty flimsy and underdeveloped. And I’m not saying that it’d be a good idea to go that route, just that I could just see Blizzard doing it.
Well, yeah
Since the introduction of the Bronze Dragons and their charge "Unto you is charged the great task of keeping the purity of time. Know that there is only one true timeline, though there are those who would have it otherwise. You must protect it. " it is basically “confirmed” holly hell Titans are the most evil and arrogant beings in the Universe - and it was pretty early in Warcraft history
Aman’Thul decided okay, THAT timeline will be the “prime” and “True” and no matter what, it must be protected and kept safe to happen what he deemed “appropriate” to happen
Every death, every catastrophe, burning majority of the universe, the fall of the Eredar to become Man’ari, Azshara, the corruption of the Orcs and fall of the Dragon Aspects, everthing… is happened because He decided it WILL happen and if you try to cheat your fate, a band of flying reptiles arrive to erase you from the timeline
Say what you want about the Void, while it did indeed horrible things, it never, ever shackled your Fate and forced Time itself and history on anyone
I don’t think the time power is this much . It seems pretty centered around Azeroth . Like you know , demons seem to be outside of it somehow . Who knows maybe naaru and their ilk are . The death realm seems to be too .
As for who is bad or good . I’m pretty sure Azeroth will become the center of the universe at some point , so basically everyone will be a bad guy .
It could also be interpreted as titan lie that Azeroth is a titan egg . (as you say chronicles perspective)
Probably it is the corner stone of all universe . The force that power all forces . All these other forces simply want to get their hands on it .
Pretty much what the npc researcher in Zereth Mortis Firim and his notes talk about .
Namely :
Number 7 and epilogue :
Even the name Azeroth and Zereth are similar . You can easily make it Azereth.
I agree that forcing someone to do something is bad from our mortal perspective, on the other hand this again raises the question: what if Azeroth successfully hatched in another timeline they didn’t see? Making everything infinite loses meaning, at least for me. Although this questions why everything can exist in multiple timelines yet the Titans seem to be one and only… I get it that keeping options free and flowing is better, but again, what’s the point.
Void is like a person who’s just going with the flow, Titans are someone who has structure in their life, kinda a hobo vs 9-5… seeing how the media is today, I understand the switch towards “morally grey” idea.
In my mind Azeroth is a being that shouldn’t wake up and has to be protected at any cost as she holds the balance for the whole universe. If the scale slides one side, that’s game over. Thanks for the links, I’ll have a look at them!
It is my own speculation , but I do not think Azeroth is a being at all (at the very least a titan egg) . Maybe the Titans want to turn it in a Titan egg or use it somehow for that purpose .
If we consider that chronicles and that the information we have is written from Titan Perspective , than you can easily imagine that Azeroth is no titan egg . If anything the egg thing sounds weird .
Imagine how most religions depict gods and deities in a human or semi human forms ? It is because the books written are made from human point of view , so it is easier to imagine the unknown as humanoid .
If a jellyfish alien from another planet imagined what a deity would look like , it would probably look like a jellyfish too .
In that sense Titans describing it as a titan egg is fairly understandable . We do not know if that really is . All we know is that supposedly it is very powerful . Supposedly the most powerful thing we know … And every cosmic force wants it .
But than again this is just my logic . Whether blizzard writes it like that is a different thing . We may end up with an egg after all , even if it makes 0 sense .
Azeroth is first, and most importantly, the great MacGuffin of the cosmic plot. Something everyone wants that brings them together in hopefully interesting situations and conflicts. It’s not really important what exactly Azeroth is, it is important that everyone wants it.
Well, the old gods were after a deeper relationship anyways and were pretty close to conquering her heart.
But no, the MacGuffin doesn’t have to be a character at all it’s just whatever thing the different parties are after that brings them together. Think of the Holy Grail or the One Ring that drove their respective stories mostly by just being important to the characters.
Void is Chaos - acts on a whim. Has a sort of goal but essentially it just, is. but we see it as evil for the curse of flesh which was against the titans designs.
The titans - From our point of view, ordered the planet, brought peace and a place to grow and develop. Ther engineered the beings of the planet to further grow native races and helped us.
The titans - From the incanate point of view, took over, took away choice, engineered unatural beings and killed and imprisoned those that came before. Keepers are hinding truths about the planet from the mortal races and lie to us and need to be removed…
The problem with the “point of view narrative” is that it makes everything relative and usually excuses lots of crimes. < RL example>: From his point of view Stalin was bringing “heaven on earth”, but he still killed millions of people and the ones who survived lived in poverty. </RL example>
It should matter more what are the results of your actions rather than your intentions. And from that point of view, titan actions were “good for life on Azeroth”.
Yeah, I am not such a big fan of PoV narratives. On a meta standpoint, it kinda feels like they’re trying to be safe about it so they could pull the rug under your feet once they notice how it isn’t shaping up as well as they want it to be.
In this scenario, they could just as easily hamfist another interpretation in and go with that kind of light yoghurt substance until ONCE AGAIN they pull the rug.
I just want to know how it all ends, but maybe ignorance is a blessing in regards of the lore.
this remind me of how much I hate Mary Sue-s…