Anyone happy with Mistweaver "changes"?

Classes Monk
1

Because I’m not. They even said that they fear they have “unpruned” too much? Err, what? Shaman and MAYBE Warrior are the only classes that seem to actually got a moderate amount abilities back in my honest opinion. I don’t have the alpha key but I’m keeping vigorously an eye out for class changes…

You gave the celestials as baseline, ok. But checking Wowhead’s Shadowlands talent calculator reveals what you didn’t say is that for Mistweavers if you pick Invoke Chi-Ji, the Red Crane ( BfA Way of the Crane) it replaces the famous Celestial you just declared as baseline: Invoke Yu’lon, the Jade Serpent.

That literally doesn’t change anything from BfA. They get the old Way of the Crane (Chi-Ji) as a talent instead of PvP talent but that’s literally it except for healing coefficient to Soothing Mist and Enveloping Mist?

And if you wanna play with Way of the Crane and still have the Jade Serpent Statue (What should be baseline and I have no idea why it isn’t, keeping it as a talent makes me so mad) WELL TOO BAD, CAN’T DO SAME ROW BRO.

Why is Summon Jade Serpent Statue still a talent?! And why does Way of the Crane replaces Yu’lon? And why for the love of god isn’t the old mana tea back?

I honestly don’t understand when you’re talking about the ridiculous “great unpruning”

Mistweaver is identical to its BfA iteration?!

Just look at this:

All Mistweaver Monks will be able to use Invoke Yu’lon, the Jade Serpent to summon the Celestial, who heals allies with Celestial Breath and spawns Healing Spheres for nearby allies. Touch of Death now instantly kills any creature with less health than the Mistweaver Monk and will spawn Healing Spheres for their allies.

Invoke Chi-Ji, the Red Crane (Talent) has been redesigned for Mistweaver Monks, strengthening their Physical damage moderately and healing their allies for part of the damage inflicted on enemies. Chi-Ji also makes Mistweaver Monks immune to movement-impairing abilities so that they can constantly be on the move during combat.

They make it seem like you get one “new” (talent from like, Legion?) spell and Way of the Crane from pvp talents into a talent choice (which sounds good in theory) but they didn’t tell you that the below one REPLACES the “new” spell mentioned above! Ha! And you know ofc, same row with Summon Jade Serpent Statue…

Oh we do get ToD. Good news everyone! Mistweaver IS different from BfA! Mistweavers can use Touch of Death in Shadowlands! The great unpruning is upon us!

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2

To be honest, I’m happy with the changes. I’m not using Way of the Crane, so I’ll still be able to have my statue and get the celestial too. I don’t need - nor want - new abilities, I’m already action capped. If I had new spells, that’d take away time from refreshing my HoT durations, and I’d have to reapply them more often.

BfA mistweaver is, in my opinion, in a good place right now, at least as far as Rising Mist with haste is concerned. (Mind you, I started playing monk in BfA, so no clue how it worked previously, thus, I can’t miss any of the old stuff.)

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Oh you really thought they would do something fun?

Nah mate, it’s mostly marketing. Things will stay pretty much the same, they’re just trying to get some hype around shadowlands since bfa is a major failure.

If they wanted to make things fun, they would’ve added all current talents and azerite traits as baseline, and they would have designed new talents.

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Shadowland MW is terrible. Saw alpha footage and crane still cost 25% mana.

If you pick crane you lose: Old Chi-ji pet(celestial) and Serpent statue. And of course 25% of your entire mana every two minutes. If by any chance something happens to you while it is active. Tough luck 80% of its value is lost during the entire encounter.

They should just remove crane at this point and make something new and exciting. They are literally incapable of balancing this ability anyway. The old crane at least dealt some kind of damage. Now it is just a joke ability to get out slows and hope that crane actually does some healing. Often bugs out and doesn’t heal some targets or does zero healing at all?!
Was doing M+, target with half health stands right beside me. All the other full hp. He gets zero heals from crane and I am forced to cocoon. It really happens too often.
https://www.twitch.tv/jdotb/clip/ProudDelightfulCarrotStrawBeary

Mistweaver damage has been big garbage entire BFA. Tiger palm deals literally zero damage. Most of your damage comes from Rising sun kick, AoE Spin and black out. Doing 5 mask vision has been biggest cancer on mistweaver by far when enemies doesn’t even loose 1% from tiger palm.

Every class got so many exciting abilities while MW somehow became even worse.

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The only use of tiger palm is to stack teaching, which you use to fish for RSK resets. It’s a filler, and is ok if it doesn’t do much damage. If you solo 5-masks, mobs have so little HP that it’s a joke. The only hard thing is the lack of interrupt on a reasonable CD. That hurts.

Stack more haste, and you’ll be able to keep renewing up forever, and enveloping on the tank for a loooong time, and you’ll do considerably more damage too due to the more frequenst RSKs. More reliable healing, more single target damage too. WotC is fine for big trashpacks, but makes you a one-hit wonder - and not a very good wonder either, because WotC is dumb, as you’ve seen.

When you have renewing on the whole group and at least one enveloping up, throw in two vivify’s and everyone’s topped, you can go back DPSing.

Mind you, I find WotC great when soloing and doing WQs. It’s pretty darn good there, but that’s about it. In SL, same goes for the talent: when soloing, the statue and the celestial is a bit meh, crane sounds more useful there. So for a WQ/Solo/outdoor build, Chi-ji will be fine. For M+, Statue + Celestial. It’s not wrong to have different talents for different purposes, within the same spec.

6

Healing is has never been a problem for me on MW. The output is pretty broken in my opinion. My problem is mainly that it is pretty boring. Especially during downtime. You are doing MARGINAL difference if you do damage or not. If you compare our damage to other healers it is literally night and day. Not only that we actually have to be in range therefore have higher risks for dealing damage.

Playing druid or disc you can just spam dots on all targets from Africa and actually contributing a lot.

No that is exactly the biggest problem with dealing damage as MW. It is simply just a filler. It is boring because it is a no damage filler. Now check other healers “filler” abilities. Yes. Considerably big difference.

It takes over 3+1 seconds to actually do some damage. Then it takes another 3+1 seconds to do damage again. Mob has 5% hp left? Though luck you have to wait another 4 seconds. Just because you can’t finish off a mob on tiger palm alone. The intervals between actually doing damage is way long.

Tiger palm damage is like 1/3 of a single blackout kick stack.

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I don’t give a dime what other healers are capable of. They ain’t monks, and aren’t in my m+ runs, so I don’t care. Makes life a whole lot simpler and enjoyable. What counts for me, is that I can both keep the group alive, and contribute noticable DPS. If I’m near the tank, I’m happy. If I pull over 15k dps over the m+ run, I’m fine with that. I do aim for more, mind you (I pull 25k on dummy, unbuffed), but my DPS is usually limited by PuGs standing in avoidable stuff.

Other healers might be able to contribute more, but since they’re not in my m+ runs, it doesn’t matter.

Assuming ~35% haste, the GCD is about 1.1seconds. Getting two stacks of teaching is thus 2.2 seconds, blackout kick at 3.3, possible RSK at 4.4. But you have two spells that do noticable damage within a GCD, so on average, you do 2 damaging spells every 4.5 seconds, so an average of 2.25 for a damaging spell to land. If Blackout doesn’t reset RSK, then yeah, it will look a bit worse, but you’re still doing damage every 3.3 seconds with Blackout kick.

From a recent AD+15 run, on Vol’kaal, 40% of my damage was RSK, 28% blackout kick [direct + passive], 20% melee, 8% tiger palm. That 28% blackout kick is not something to just brush off, even if RSK is considerably higher.

You also have spinning crane kick, doing ~double the damage of tiger palm. So if the mob is at 5% HP, just spin it down. Or if you’re in a horrific vision, and aren’t saving your crucible charges for a boss or mini boss, finish them off with that. Or just pull the next pack and spin the low HP one down along with the others.

The only reason to keep damaging a single mob at 5% HP in a horrific vision is when there are no other mobs anywhere near to pull. In which case, 3-4 seconds doesn’t matter. You can still start running to wherever you’re going to go after the mob’s dead to save some time.

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You would be fine doing zero damage too. Just because you are fine with it doesn’t make it is right.

If you don’t care about balance between healers then we really don’t have an argument.

Just 15k? You can do 30k just spamming moonfire and sunfire. Double your damage from doing nothing and if you ACTUALLY decide to do damage deal up to 60k+.

Come on. Stop defending MW dealing trash damage. The evidence is clear.

It does matter. It is literally wasting my time.

In no universe should tiger palm deal only 3k-6k damage when a single shred does 20k.

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I would love to see old Eminence coming back, the one we had in MoP. You and your Jade Serpent Statue would heal players within 20yds for 25% of your damage, that was actually really good and fun in PvE. It’s been a downgrade after that.

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10

Do visions as DPS then. You’ll do more damage and finish faster than pretty much any healer. Or, you know, chain pull, so the low HP mobs get spin down with the next pack and you never have to spend the extra seconds to finish them off.

People should care less, to be honest. The game would be so much more fun if people didn’t try to compete on every little thing.

Hmm… lets see…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp-bWUhuBMg - ML+17, ~27k overall damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmyClfglNYs - UR+18, ~22k overall.

That 22-27k damage is pretty much in the same ballpark as my damage if I play with friends (and that doesn’t include neither WotC, nor Twilight Devastation).

Yes, you can pull way more than 15k on bigger trash packs as a druid. But so can I. If I go for DPS, with WotC and TD3 corruption, my highest DPS on a pack was over 150k (ML+15, the entire circular area before the first boss pulled). But even without those two, I can just spin and do more than 30k+ with a single ability, if we have a sufficiently large group of mobs pulled.

I’m looking at overall dps throughout the entire dungeon. You’re not going to pull 30k on a boss with just moonfire and sunfire.

Mind you, there are people pulling 60k overall dps in high keys, like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aadJHhXj7dU. Most of the damage seems to be on trash though, his boss damage is around 40k - which is still high, but very well reachable as mistweaver too. On trash, if you pull big, WotC + TD3 on a mistweaver will skyrocket your dps too.

From a few videos I found, it seems to me mistweavers are fine on the DPS front, compared to resto druids and holy pallies at least. The others may have bigger bursts, but the overall damage done is comparable.

But lets see a few mistweaver videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdElG8jyp1s - ML+17, 46.8k overall damage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcuVu92D1fQ - Junk+15, 28k overall. Just to show that even outside of speedrun settings, a mistweaver can still pull the same overall damage as other healers (see above the two resto druid videos).

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Performance doesnt matter in PUGbrains. Numbers are good,but the first MW monk you see right now on all dungeons leaderboards is on page 8. The first 8 pages are dominated by Rdruids and a few Hpalas.

You still see LF RDRUID, do you see LF MW? I dont.

No matter what, i pugged 4 seasons in this monk and the most painful by far was s3. The druid utility devastated all the other healing classes, its a bit better now though.

They have CR+Roots+Vortex+Typhoon+Stealth+Soothe+INNERVATE and they can DoT as they have already HoT’s on allies. You can crane with a cost of 25% of your total mana each min, or 12.5 each 2 min and we all know MW is the most mana hungry healing spec ingame.

Now from shadowlands, they will have more additions to their toolkit like Cyclone+Symbiosis+Stampeding roar. Just because they didnt have already the biggest tooltip, blizzard wanted to buff them abit.

My guess, as things are now on shadowlands alpha if guardian druids are not by far the best and most wanted tank we will end up with another s3 rdruid shtshow domination.

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A big part of that is that S3 was heavily druid dominated, and druids are still strong, so the same top teams play the same classes, because it works.

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Big? Id easily say all. Even low rio’s asked Rdruids for the 5’s.

These teams dont have 1 main. They have all tanks or example zmok that has all healers. They pick the absolute best, not what it “works”.

Dps is not the only factor, when they push +26 and healer is druid its because nobody else can actually heal it and provide the utility it needs. We would spend most of the time OoM. Specially haste-dps build is way less mana efficient.

14

I genuinely feel like they have no idea what they want to do with MW. You could see this coming after the Blizzcon announcement and Holinka saying he wasn’t sure what Monk should have unpruned. Looks like nothing has changed in their attitude.

They could’ve given us the one system that unified all 3 Monk specs: Chi.

Instead, they’ve given us:
ToD - Although it’s nice to have it’s never been that interesting of a spell. I don’t think people think of Touch of Death when they think of the overarching Monk fantasy.

Expel Harm - This spell is basically just another button to press. When I say that I don’t mean that it should be pruned again, but that it’s lost its use now MW doesn’t use Chi as a resources anymore. Expel Harm used to generate 2 Chi and this was useful as it was instant. The spell would be weaved into Chi generation. Now it’s just going to be pressed whenever for no reason other than to be an extra heal. That’s just flat and uninteresting.

Yu’lon CD - This is literally just the Chi-ji CD that we have as a talent in BFA. All that’s changed is the spell now has a green dragon instead of a red crane. I still appreciate it being baseline, but the animation of Yu’lon darting all over the place really needs to be cleaned up. It looks low effort and is the same animation as BFA Chi-Ji talent.

Chi-Ji CD talent - This is apparently a controllable pet with WotC tacked on. This replaces the Yu’on baseline CD and is a worse choice. It costs 25% mana and the healing is performed through a convoluted pet control system. It’s way too mana-intensive for an already mana-drained spec. We’re also Monks, not Hunters… why do we have an august celestial as a pet? It should be flying across the battlefield to aid us and our allies, not sitting by our side or running into groups by our command like an inferior.

Suggestions:

Remove Essence Font - This is probably one of the most uninteresting spells we’ve ever had. Even Blizzard struggles to do anything with the spec outside of just ‘tie everything to EF and call it synergy’, see the 1 and only Covenant ability that we have so far. It also homogenised the feel of MW and brought it more in line with other healers. I did not start playing a MW in MoP to pop an AOE heal every 15 seconds then do nothing for 3-4 seconds since EF is so dominant in my healing. I started playing a MW to jab the enemy and heal my raid with chi and mists.

BRING BACK CHI! Blizzard seem to have struggled to unify the Monk specs and I don’t blame them. If only there was some sort of resource system that unified the specs in the past… like CHI!!!

Bringing back Chi means Expel Harm has a use. It quickly generates 2 Chi like it used to.

Bring back Uplift and ReM synergy

Bring back MoP Mana Tea. The current Mana Tea is a budget innervate and it’s on the GCD.

Make Serpent Jade Statue baseline (lowest priority since we now have Yu’lon on crack baseline). I thought we were meant to be having an unpruning? We’ve got 3 spells back and 2 of them aren’t even that interesting. Meanwhile Druid gets Ursol’s Vortex, Stampeding Roar and Cyclone, all 3 are incredibly useful for certain situations. What is Expel Harm useful for? An extra heal that barely does anything? No thanks I already have Tiger Palm as a DPS filler.

Improve the animations of Yu’lon CD - It should fly to targets but heal them instantly. It looks better than darting all over the place like it’s on coke.

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The unpruning has been a big disappointment. And to think how excited I was… This just makes me feel like I’ve been lied to and they are not really listening to the players…

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It’s still early to tell as we haven’t even seen the other covenant abilities.

Personally I’d enjoy fist weaving to be viable outside its current iteration. Allow mw to heal through damage instead building up enveloping mist and renewing mist in everyone with ridiculous amount of haste, the current style feels a bit degenerate and an oversight considering the amount of hps is able to do vs other healing classes.

The current iteration certainly won’t be viable as you’ll lose haste as well as misty peaks + corruption haste procs and %, so I’m guessing this playstyle will be unviable outside M+.

Regular MW seems okay in its current integration, though I’d enjoy if it wasn’t so centered around essence font in raids, but rising mist/fist weaving build needs a good rework, would be nice to have the diversity of changing between the two and having similar output.

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It is early enough though. The covenant abilities will just be a bandaid for poorly designed classes.

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Fortifying Brew is already baseline for MW. It’s a PvP Talent for WW though lmao

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You know I’ve been playing WW so much more recently I completely forgot MW has it baseline. I remember in Legion actually removed it from MW but gave it back because MW had literally no defensives outside of it. They’ve made so many bad decisions with the spec I can’t keep up anymore.

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The only “exciting” ability we get is Touch of Death. Overall a huge disappointment. No baseline Jade Serpent Statue, no Spear Hand Strike, Chi Wave is still there (why?!), no Chi, no baseline Mana Tea, No baseline Grapple Weapon, no Nimble Brew and Uplift… :frowning:

They pruned the spec with Legion so much and we got nothing in return. And even if we should get good Covenant abilities it won’t matter because they will be removed after Shadowlands.

Oh and seems like Essence Font will be as boring as it is now. At least I will be able to watch Netflix while playing the game, because Essence Font is so braindead, that watching a movie is more interesting and fun than playing an Essence Font bot in raids :slight_smile:

6 Likes