Not sure whether any Blizzard employee actually reads forum posts but in case they do, I would like to bring to their attention that two of the tank specs are in dire need of buffs. BDK and Guardian druid are currently much weaker than the other tanks and I can feel the difference when I play my prot warrior compared to my druid. Currently the “good” tanks are split into two camps: the utility camp and the damage camp. VDH and protection paladin are invited and wanted because they can alone control a pack and prevent casts from killing the group, while protection warrior and monk do crazy damage and buff a physical comp significantly, while also providing some nice utility (mass silence, mass stun). Meanwhile, guardian druid and dk do not have a permanent mass silence or stun, only cast delays, while also, at least in the case of druid, doing subpar damage. Historically, if you look at the tank meta representation, 2 tanks are always bottom tier monk and druid, so at least monk is getting something this tier but druid has literally been meta for only half of season 2 in DF. I doubt Blizzard cares enough to rework bear and dk utility (they even took away utility from them in the case of dk lmao) to make them competitive in that regard, so could we at least get to do competitive damage.
Just as a reference, here is the meta representation over the last 4 expansions of the game, starting BFA season 3, according to raider io data. These statistics are specifically for push keys where class strength matters.
Meta tank
BFA season 3
Monk
BFA season 4
Warrior
SL Season 1
VDH
SL Season 2
No clear meta, actually balanced season
SL Season 3
BDK
SL Season 4
BDK
DF Season 1
Paladin
DF Season 2
Druid
DF Season 3
VDH
DF Season 4
VDH
TWW Season 1
Paladin
TWW Season 2
VDH
TWW Season 3
Warrior
Times is was meta
VDH
4
Paladin
2
BDK
2
Warrior
2
Monk
1
Druid
1
Also every single season, the second best choice, post BFA, is usually protection paladin, so keep that in mind.
Please, make some changes for the better.
Another indepth analysis that misses the point in every respect.
The gap between meta and non meta is about a key level, thats really well balanced. There will always be a meta and sometimes its not to do with the tank itself but the comp it plays with.
Also, does this impact you? Are you one of the less than 100 tanks in the world doing push keys?
But look at Monkeesa (BM). Why does he play with RShaman, Warrior, Cat, Rogue? Why dosent he play with Disc (arguably superior healer), mage, DK, dudu?
Its not a coincidence. And that is how you have to think about “the meta”. Its not about how good one spec is. Its about how 5 specs synergy between themselves.
I am well aware that this is how the design attitude has been so far, and I think they should work to improve it so that all tanks can be competitive. This, alongside healer is a high pressure and demanding role in high keys. I may not have the time to do top 0.1% keys but that does not mean I do not want to play challenging keys and feel like I am not failing my group by not contributing what a protection palading or protection warrior is. And if the next advice is “reroll” I think that is the wrong attitude too because even the above average wow player is an adult with responsibilities and limited time. If the underperforming tanks are not given the same utility, they should at least be doing more damage to kill the pack faster so the additional CC is not required. Or if not doing more damage, then they should be given the same level of CC. What you are saying is I need to form a group of elite players around my weaknesses to make up for it? If I am pugging that is impossible or would take double the time, it would take a protection paladin or warrior currently. It is an unrealistic ask. The request for Blizzard to simply improve the quality of life of underperformers is not a grand one, this applies to other roles too of course but I speak as a tank. Tanks are in demand in LFG and dps complain there are no tanks and yet do not invite off meta because they know it will be harder to time the key, as they, as dps will have to make up for the off meta weakness and at that point you might as well log off.
First off, paragraphs, thats like reading a car crash.
You likely don’t have the skill for it. You get 3k a month after me and I’m mediocre, lets have an honest conversation, not one where you puff your chest out and pretend to be something you aren’t.
But you don’t play “challenging keys”. Monks and druids bring plenty to keys and now you’re going to rebutt this with “Ahh but druid doesn’t have a mass silence qq” or some such drivel.
You’ve yet to offer any evidence of underperformance. Again, balanced to with a key level and there are other factors at play which you’ve (again) ignored.
Eh, I’m not going to change your mind, I’ll just leave you to shout your sucky ideas into the void, they’ll be ignored anyway.
Play to the strengths of the class you play, not what the other guy does. That’s how the meta is made and how perfectly performing classes are buried in the rubble.
Granted, I certainly have not even started going for even 12’s yet, but statistics often show you do not need to be the #1 or even #2 meta class to perform well in the most relevant key brackets. If you are aiming to achieve the highest echelon, then fair game! But then you’ll have left where my space of knowledge, as well as interest, is relevant.
I also play a BrM Monk, VDH and Bear/Resto Druid. I do fine on all three as it is.
Don’t need to be so aggro. We should have a constructive conversation. I am currently doing 15s so dunno, maybe I’m a giga casual and you are doing 18-19 keys but that is not the point. Doesn’t mean I do not care about the classes I play or invalidate my opinion. Yes, monks and druids bring things to the table but def not at the same level. Let’s do one comparison.
Prot warrior currently brings: Incredible damage, incredible tankiness, attack damage buff, shockwave stun on short cd, mass silence on 1.5min cd, single target stun
Guardian druid bring: Versa buff, poison/curse dispel, good tankiness, incap roar and ursols + typhoon.
The reason in this case why prot warrior is better at least utility wise, ignoring the damage aspect is because a completey stun of the pack with shockwave for several seconds beats the cast delay you get by incapping for example, and mass silence is very valuable.
Sure, druid has a dispell but realistically it is useful this season in very niche situations to such a degree that some of the top groups are not even needing a druid at all in any form.
Now if you think things are fine as they are, more power to you friend, play the game and have fun. I am just stating my two cents.
This thread has made it clear that people are fine with the status quo I guess, so I’ll drop it I will just stop playing when I get tired of not being able to do so because I am not a warrior or paladin.
To his defense, I will say blizzard does have to do a better job at tuning. Especially later on in the season.
I dont know what skill you got. But if by not forming part of the meta comp means you dont get a “free 10% boost to performance” eventually you will start to feel that 10%.
And you will reach some key level where it simply becomes boring to deplete all the time. And you will quit. Or play an alt. Those that remain and dont quit will be those that have the 10% free performance.
That is how the “meta comp” trickels down key levels as the season progresses. The bigger the “free performance” is, the faster it will be. And that is what blizzard has to avoid with tuning: A stale meta.
you can get to 3k rating on any of tanks without any problem
in highest keys blood dks wont be seen unless they literaly rework them from scratch - because there its not about sustainibility only about dmg mitingation / prevention
and both dks and guardian are just squishy even if they can carry in low keys where their self heals will keep them alive regardnless of how bad healer is.
Yeah, that’s not how any of this works. If somebody has 5+ months to achieve title range, then there’s zero reason to push hard for the first two months.
That is no indication of lack of skill in any way.
I’ll bite, what does a Guardian Druid bring to the key?
Guardian specific, not something a Feral or Balance could.
Right, but OP is talking about spec balance between tanks. And now you are trying to make it about classes. I think, if you are moving the bar away from the topic, I can move it back.
I am glad you have agreed with my assessment at least.
Hes talking about balance at the very top of keys “push keys”. You’re talking about the need to push for title range now - we’re not remotely on the same page.
By that logic then a guardian brings an incap roar because no other tank does. The fact that other druids do is irrelevant. It also brings motw, no other tank does that.
That’s a class ability, Balance, Resto and Feral has it.
Incap roar is not a factor when deciding which spec are you taking as a tank.
That’s where you are wrong. And that’s a reason why you don’t see many comps/groups even at keys 8-13 where you have Guardian with another druid.
You can stack Protection Paladin, Veng DH, Blood DK, even Prot Warr at some extent, but you get no extra performance by bringing Guardian Druid or Brewmaster Monk if the group already has that class.
We are definitely running in circles here. My statement was regarding your assessment that OPs point and experience is redundant because they haven’t achieved 3k score as quickly as you have. My reply was that this assessment has no valid logical reasoning behind it.
Dev team moved to next expansion, however my issue is that Bear and BDK surviblity and utility are far inferior to the other tanks ( I play all the tank on 12+ or more in M+)
On my war 690 Ilvl is far easier tanking on my BDK 705 that should tell you everything mate
There’s a mistake about the bear. Incap Roar, Vortex, and Typhoon are examples of abilities that buff the group, even if the group already has such abilities.
The bear has no problems with survival, even up to the highest keys.
All of them only good for interrupting channels. Which is rather niche when it comes to M+. The only impact Vortex has is at Gambit last boss for the adds, otherwise, total Meme of a spell. If RNG is with you, you can get some value out of it from the Priory Marksmen. Typhoon doesn’t work against enemies that actually hit the tank hard.
Of course, not only. They are useful for interrupting any spells, as well as for pulling targets together.
Wrong again. Vortex is used to pull targets together in many places. These include rocket launchers in Floodgate, marksmen in Priory, and simply any packs that have casters or marksmen.
Yes, the bear needs a damage buff. More precisely, a single-target damage buff.
For sure they can but it’s not the rule the exception, and for a clear reason outside Incan bear flops in high keys utility is good though, BDK is utter garbage to play
Plainly if you put VDH, War, Pally, and even monk with same ilvl compared to BDk or bear they can’t compete in active/passive mitigation and damage
I will just stop playing when I get tired of not being able to do so because I am not a warrior or paladin.