Asmongold is right RWF is ruining WoW

Theres is a reason - its some kind of sport

There must be somewhere between normal and M+ 30 a version of the dungeons that is not braindead easy or korean esports level difficult. I am pretty sure it exist.

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The opposite, actually. You donā€™t need to raid to get tier sets in 9.2, most people who donā€™t raid just need to wait a bit longer to get them through other means. In 9.1, anyone who wanted to be competitive was forced to raid because it was the only source of domination socket gear.

Iā€™ll address your answer before your question because I disagree with the statement. In vanilla, there was only one raid difficultly (and although I didnā€™t play at the time, I gather it was pretty difficult). As time went on, they made the base raid level (which came to be called ā€˜normalā€™) more accessible, and added heroic. Heroic was hard. To clear it required a committed 2 - 3 nights a week raiding schedule. Then they introduced mythic, which replaced heroic at the 2 - 3 nights a week level of commitment, and made the other difficulties more accessible again.

Raiding is easier now than it ever was in the past. It has not become ā€˜too hardā€™.

Maybe because the playerbase has grown up. When WoW first launched, most of the players were young people. Many were students with plenty of time on their hands, and they had no difficulty committing a few hours 2 or 3 evenings a week, every week, to raiding. The ā€˜typicalā€™ WoW player now has a job, maybe a family, other life commitments, and canā€™t commit to that kind of raiding schedule. This explains the rise of mythic plus as alternative endgame content that can be done in less time and without a fixed schedule.

This change in player demographic also fits with the changes in raid difficulties. Mythic raiding is only ever going to appeal to people who have time for that level of commitment, and most of us donā€™t. Making entry level raiding easier shows that Blizz has recognised the change in demographic, and has tried to provide opportunities for everyone to raid regardless of how little time they have, while still providing a challenge in mythic for those who are able to commit to tackling it.

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I can(but donā€™t want to) commit to a raiding schedule but Iā€™m so done with scheduling playing games, theyā€™re supposed to be for fun, having to play on a schedule isnā€™t fun.

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Hereā€™s a really weird ideaā€¦ maybe people do it because it fun :open_mouth:

Then donā€™t, thereā€™s plenty of pugs at all timesā€¦

It wasnā€™t, there was like 1 mechanic per fightā€¦ the hard part was finding 39 other people with a PC that could run the game so they could manage that 1 mechanic.

Thereā€™s plenty of pugs at all times? Where? You canā€™t pug mythic at this point, itā€™s unlikely youā€™ll ever be able to finish the raid in a pug.

Conduits I guess? Theyā€™re a minor upgrade but theyā€™re here. As well as teh teleports to dungeons for doing +20.

Fair. Iā€™m the kind of person who looks forward to raid nights, but if you prefer more spontaneity, then I can see how it probably isnā€™t fun.

Also fair, and it makes me very happy that hardware development has outpaced the increasing demands of games.

Sure, but WoWā€™s playerbase probably looks a bit like this:

A small percentage of players are braindead newbies who backpedal and donā€™t know how to rotate the camera.

Another small percentage of players are hardcore competitive no-life eSport players who aim for the top of the leaderboards.

And everyone else ā€“ the vast majority of the playerbase ā€“ are reasonably-skilled players who exist somewhere between the two extremes.

With that in mind you would think that the gameā€™s content would mirror its player demograph, i.e. the majority of the content would be reasonably difficult and a minority of content would be braindead easy and Korean eSport levels of difficult.

But as I outlined in my initial graph:

Then the opposite is true.

Most of the gameā€™s content is either braindead easy or Korean eSport levels of difficult.

And thatā€™s just stupid. The game serves its population outliers better than it serves its mass audience.

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Conduits at 278 arenā€™t going to make enough difference compared to having them at 265 to justify getting to 3k and the teleports arenā€™t enough of an incentive, at least not for me, because theyā€™re not account wide and are going to be useless next expansion.

Had there been some really cool transmog for getting to 3k, I might have considered going for it because that would be something that lasts beyond this expansion and isnā€™t just some very minor upgrade over what I already have.

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Sure you can, just not cross realm yet.
I recommend starting with normal first thoā€¦

Itā€™s a big jump from LFR to mythicā€¦ but Iā€™m sure youā€™ll manage, you are a professional right? Just waiting for your chance to do itā€¦

I canā€™t really get any upgrades in normal, like, at all, unless I get tier drops but with the catalyst, I can just create 278 tier pieces, so why do normal or heroic? Like, Iā€™m ilvl 271, what am I going to do with 252 gear or 265 gear?

Pretty graph. It seems to represent a way of thinking that I would describe as: ā€œOMG, I have to get better to progress to the next level of difficulty? No, no, no. Thatā€™s too HARD, man.ā€

Actual increases in difficulty look pretty much like the blue line on your graph. They just feel like the red line when youā€™re forced to get better to tackle them.

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You do youā€¦ Iā€™m sure youā€™ll do fine in mythic raidā€¦ itā€™s just like lfrā€¦ no personal responsibility and you can just afk through it.

The catalyst isnā€™t even out yet, but Iā€™ve got my 4 piece and most of my friends who raid regularly have at least 2 piece. The reason to do normal and HC (for loot) is because you donā€™t want to wait.

Because itā€™s part of the progression system. Do you go straight into a +15 key without ever having set foot in the dungeon before? Iā€™d guess not. Even geared for 15s, those of us who hadnā€™t practised Tazavesh went into lower keys first to get a feel for the mechanics.

The same applies to raiding. You start out at normal, where the mechanics are simpler and less punishing if you make a mistake, and progress to harder levels.

Ofc sport is fun :muscle:

Iā€™ve gotten exactly 0 pieces. Iā€™d rather just wait to be able to convert 278 pieces to the tier set than go into the raid and hope Iā€™d get them at a far inferior ilvl.

You do you. No-one is telling you that you have to raid. However, try to imagine for a moment that there are people who exist who are not like you. People who donā€™t want to wait. People who choose to raid because they find it fun.

Thatā€™s the wonderful thing about WoW. It offers so much variety in content. I just focus on the things I do enjoy and donā€™t waste my time wondering ā€˜why would anyone enjoy that?ā€™ when it comes to the things I donā€™t.

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So all the bs about not wanting to raid on a schedule isnā€™t the reason you donā€™t raidā€¦ you donā€™t raid because you simply donā€™t want toā€¦
Thatā€™s fine dudeā€¦ just stop with bs excuses then and simply say raiding isnā€™t for youā€¦

Thatā€™s not so much my point.

Letā€™s take patch 9.2.

What does it offer?

Well thereā€™s Zereth Mortis and all your open world content, which is braindead easy. Thereā€™s no real difficulty increase that needs to be tackled here.

Then thereā€™s raiding, which very quickly goes from braindead easy LFR to Korean eSport levels of difficult in Mythic.
If a Season is 8 months long, then raiders arenā€™t going to spend most of that time smoothly progressing from LFR to Heroic. Theyā€™re going to spend it being stuck somewhere in Mythic.
The content in-between braindead easy and Korean eSport difficult is relatively short-lived.

And my point is simply that this is a weird content design focus, because it emphasizes some difficulty levels (braindead or Korean eSport) that donā€™t actually suit the majority of the players.

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