This does not make any sense. If they remove the support things and turn Aug into a regular DPS, it would be exactly that : A regular DPS.
Which you could tune to be ~ on par with other DPS. Like Devesation for example… It does not do much more damage than any other spec.
That is something that you cant do currently. If you want Aug to do ~ on par DPS to other DPS specs, then its insanely OP because of the utility it provides. If you remove the utility, then its not a support spec anymore. And if you nerf the DPS so that its lower than a regular DPS but keeps its utility, you are literally condemning the spec (nerfing it to the ground).
And unfortunately there is no way out of this. No “middle ground”.
Its not a support spec. Its a DPS with a special mechanic, making it the ONLY DPS capable of buffing the Healer and Tank (among other things).
And im not saying its destroying M+. Its just making it worse for everyone ! And few people see how to fit Aug in the M+ scene with out making it a obscenely OP spec, or, dirt bad.
And I wont accept it at face value. I just cant, im sorry. I disagree with its existence for reasons I already expressed. And I will continue to disagree as long as those reasons still hold true.
Druid has Thorns and Shaman has Earth Shield. Aug has Blistering Scales, a MUCH better version of that.
Augs provide a MASSIVE mana regen buff to the healer.
Druids have Mark of the Wild. Aug has Shifting Sands which provides MORE versatility.
Augs provide rescues, which is a version of freedom with a lower CD.
Augs provide Ebon Might, which ~ is equivalent to having an extra main stat trinket permanently.
Augs provide 3% crit with Prescience.
Augs provide Fate Mirror, extra 15% on heals and spells…
Shamans provide cap totem. Augs have tail sweep and their AoE stun roar. For free because its a Evoker Racial and not a talent.
Druids and Hunters can soothe 1 target. Augs can AoE soothe.
Augs can dispel all Bleed, Poison, Curse, and Disease effects. For the record, NO spec (healer, DD, or Tank) can dispel Poisons, Curse and Disease at once. Only 2, and usually need a talent to do it. Also, Evokers are the only spec that can dispel Bleeds.
They can fly like a DH. They can teleport with their Hearthstone thing. They can do a party wide AoE shield like mages…
Want me to go on ?
They literally have EVERYTHING, and even worse : BETTER versions of EVERYTHING. In a single spec !
Depends on what you do with everything else !
But removing all those tank and healer buffs would be a start yes. But not the only thing.
I also complain about PI from Priests and how a priest is “required” because of their utility. Especially in S2…
I don´t either, anymore, because I only run a weekly with friends becasue no matter how often I try to “give m+ a chance”, 8 years later it´s still boring AF , so i’m not going to spend a second longer than necessary playing it.
But specifically what used to be teh 5-15 bracket was notorious for years for just dripping with toxic tryhards… Like, during all of Bfa and all of shadowlands… You either actively stayed below it or you rose above it, but the absolute worst time was while anyone was in the middle of it and forced to PuG. . And that´s unfortunately where about 1000X as many players play as on your level, and about 100x as many as on mine… so no matter what either of us think, their collecitve opinion matters orders of magnitude more.
Public statements from teh Devs, such as Ion in his onsite interview with preach last year, do not support this statement in any way,. And I´m fairly certain they know these numbers better than you or I do, so please excuse me for putting more faith in their statements than yours
But yeah m+ numbers are “high”, in no small part because people like me that would rrather get a root canal than slowly melting their brain still get funneled into it with 13 characters season after season after season, simply because we can´t reclear the raid but also want to upgrade our gear. The big spike in participation @ 8s is no coincidence, it’s where practically any and every heroic and mythic raider that edoesn´t actually enjoy m+ plays. And, sorry, but the ~1.7 million characters that have participated in the current season https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-4/world/all/all start melting away really fast when you start subtracting alts, which we can probalby safely assume are at least half of the chars. and if raiders like myself had an actual alternative for wryms and aspect crests, like 25% crests and no loot on reclears or bi weekly lockouts, those numbers just might go into free fall faster than either one of us can imagine… Maybe not, that`s the entire problöem with your statemtnts and why I don´t usually make similar ones unless baited: We simply don´t have the truly accurate numbers needed to reliably make that assessment and can only speculate, more or less reasonably.
But if 1,7 million characters, not even accounts, is “The majority of the playerbase”, as so many have spewn so often (not you, mind you), then the game is at best on life support and most of those players must be hyperwhales each spending thousands every month in the shop for WoW to still pull the quarterly revenue numbers it does…
But, back to our new toopic, of yourse there is some crossover from people that enjoy both, but the mere fact that there are people funneled into either mode against their will ( I am fiully awarre of how good some raid trinkets are for M+) is already a potential design problem that we’re “probably” not going to solve here by arguing back and forth wherter m´is “popular” or not…
Which, btw, was never a part of the discussion to begin with so like teh PvP argument, i honestly don’t understand why you even bring it up because it bears little to no no relevance to the the discussion we were having whatsoever, and we´re most certainly not going to get anywhere if you keep changing the topic. With all due respect, It´s starting to feel a little bit like you may just be “defending” m+ from some imaginairy “attacks” on pure blind principle alone, and that´s not really a level that I plan on continuing any discussion on …
I never thought of it that way but the crest system actually makes M+ seem more popular than it is. Also quite an interesting turn of events we have: it used to be that you were “forced” to raid, now you are “forced” to run dungeons if you want to max your gear
It is more like you have to do both when you want to max your gear. There’s never been any season i have maxed my gear. Not even 9 months of season 4 BFA.
It are talents though that you have to choose. And some are even on choice nodes in the tree, so you can not take those both. But sure, every spec has some utility. Not in the amount of augEvoker though.
half of the mentioned above aug skills are talented picks fyi
apart from ebon might, which is compulsory in early tree
should you choose to, you dont need to take Rescue, breath of eaons, shards etc…
I don’t want to be rude. But if you don’t play M+… if your idea of M+ can be resumed in :
You have no intention of doing anything above an 8 :
Why are you commenting about it?
Let me say this another way :
Whatever happens with the meta, no matter how oppressive or balanced it is… it will 100% NEVER, EVER affect you. It will not affect the class you play or how you play it.
It will definitely not change your point of view of M+. You clearly don’t like it, and are desperate to find ways to avoid doing it…
I will ask again : Why are you commenting about it ? I wont value your opinion at all because you simply dont like to do dungeons to begin with.
What DO you like to do ? Raid ? Go to the raid forums and give your opinion there. Or create a post about “I dont want to farm dungeons for Raid gear”. All 100% valid options.
I on the other hand am talking about those who do like M+. Who are currently doing 8s, 9s, 10s, and 11s and would LIKE to continue (because its fun) but cant because of an oppressive meta.
YOU are not the target audience of this.
Changing subject : Statistics
I don’t listen to them. I get all my data from Raider IO. Because raider IO is at best an accurate source of information, and at WORST it under counts the real value.
Who cares if its alts or not ? The fact is that they do it.
Like : I just did BH with my main. What do I want to do now ? Raid ? Log-Off ? NOPE. Im going to do BH AGAIN with my alt…
Why would they ? If they dont like it, then they should not.
Fact is that people also do that with alts in raids as well. And that is also public information from Raider IO. And its measured in “thousands”… not “millions”.
As in : Compare “how many keys were completed this week” vs, “how many raids were cleared this week”. Compare the numbers. Not the “player base”. The Player base is a really, really hard number to measure.
But WHAT people do with their time is easier to measure. And people spend more time in M+ than anywhere else.
Oh and me. Dont forget me. I really enjoy doing those levels with friends/family. It gives for really nice and relaxing gameplay and chit-chat in Discord.
Oh you said “meta” only exists in M+. I rebutted that by saying “meta” exists everywhere. In Raids and PvP as well.
And also, I saw that post in Reddit with really funny PvP comps. Had to post that
Oh, I´m sorry, I seem to have missed the sign at the entrance that said "Only current KSMs and above may have opinions and share their relevant experiences.
The thread title is “Augmentation evoker is destroying M+ since its release”. I have played augmentation evoker since it was released the middle (not as you strongly imply in the beginning) of S,2 mostly against my will,and for all of season 3 specifically because it was meta. But that experience is of course not in any way relevant to a thread about Augvokers and M+
But at least I now understand why you don´t see toxicity, you´re breeding it yourself with asinine statements like this trying to gatekeep the right to an opinion
Have a good life, I have nothing further to discuss with you. Peace.
Then why are you still wasting your time trying to change it with everything that came after this statement?.
I did not, please reread the statement and do not mentally insert words that were not typed.
I´ll give you that, i got a chuckle out of it too. And on that positive note, goodbye
NO. It provides a better version of Wind Fury. NOT Sky Fury. It will become a raid buff that gives 3% mastery (FAR from any buff Aug gives) PLUS a 20% chance to double down on an auto attack.
This is : (A) useless for casters (except the mastery) and (B) only truly useful for warriors (windfury part), and marginally useful for the other melees.
I would gladly give this up for something that give +10% main stat…
Thats a choice node. One or the other.
Sleep walk. Does the same.
Shaman has 2. Which cost 3 talent points in WW. Aug has 2 from Racials. PLUS 1 extra one for being Aug for free.
When whas this useful ? Classic maybe ? There is a reason WHY there are no unavoidable AoE fears anymore. Because it would make shamans so OP and mandatory it would be unfair. So instead of giving every spec a tremor totem, they simply removed AoE fears from the game.
What elemental totems? Like Earth Elemental ? The one that dies from 2 autoatacks of a mob? Go to the shaman forums. Shamans are begging to remove taunt from the elemental because its SUPPOSED to be a personal defensive, and the stupid thing keeps committing suicide by taunting things !!! (and annoy the tank, or move a mob such that the frontal looks towards the party… ect…).
Removed from the game in WW.
So Poison Clense totem is better than Aug dispel that is Bleeds (especially that)… and ALL OTHER FORMS OF MAGIC DISPEL ?
Take the totem please ! I want a thing to dispel every possible debuf. And I include enrages too ! Cause I want that too since were at it.
Like I said. Aug has a better shield than a shaman.
Costs a talent you simply cant spend on that. And its not useful at all. Just “somehow” useful in very, very niche situations.
Really ? You are comparing Shamans to Aug evokers ?
I might have 10 utility buttons. But only 3 are useful and cost 6 talent points. Augs get 10 utility buttons, of which those 10 are the BEST IN THE GAME, and cost ZERO talents. All the Aug talents are there to buff those 10 buttons which they have by default.
Thats the point ! What relevant experiences do you have when it comes to playing the Meta (or off-meta) and their consequences.
Especially with regards to Aug evoker, a brand new experimental spec. So whatever experience you might have had in BFA, Aug is not part of it.
I dont see it in M+. Because I enjoy M+.
You dont. You just farm the dungeons for gear and you seem very focused on that.
And I 100% agree with the fact that you actually like to Raid, and have to do this M+ “chore” in order to do so. And I wish blizzard would address this problem by giving you alternative means of farming gear. And I would LOVE that blizzard also gave alternative means of acquiring OP weapons and trinkets that are exclusive to raids (cause I, just as you, am TIRED of farming raids for them).
But with that said, I totally understand why when you do M+… anything that would make your chore longer to execute (bad performance, some minuscule comment in /party) might anger you and you see toxicity everywhere.
I just enjoy everything in M+. Wipes included… So its hard for me to consider something “toxic” because I try my best to have cool and relaxed vibes in the M+ runs. With friends or randos.
This is what you said. How else am I supposed to read that ?
One does not have to be a chef to know whether the food tastes bad or not. He does not have to be in the same bracket as you to have a worthwhile opinion. This is gatekeeping, ad hominem, and a hasty generalization.
If you never ate fish in your life, or anything similar to it.
You have to have eaten a fish first to give an opinion. Having eaten “food” before is not a criteria to talk about fishes specifically.
And if the discussion is about types of fish and how to cook them, then yea… it helps to be a chef… gives your opinion more weight.
I mean…
Think about it… if we are talking about a disease, who would you rather listen to? Me that I have googled some stuff about it… or a doctor with 20 years of experience on that specific disease?
If I gave you a pill and promised it would cure you… and the doctor gave you a different one… which one would you swallow ?
How much weight each opinion has is a different story but outright not even valuing an opinion and announcing that dismissively is wrong I think :). First we should hear what they have to say, not discredit them based on their (recent) experience.
Just like the best designers are often not the best players, so too the ones we thought would never be able to chime in on a topic can come up with the greatest ideas and most valuable input.
He gave his opinion. Based on some factors he wrote. That is not illegal.
I told him those factors are wrong. Because they are. Gave him Raider IO data.
And instead of considering my correction and potentially changing his mind (nor a requirement either), he tried to rebuke my correction. In a way that can be resumed as :
My experiences of “reluctantly farming 8+ for gear can be extrapolated to other key levels and players. How? Because I say so.”
And my answer to that is… OK boomer…
That is the whole story. So I never denied his opinion. Its just wrong. Why ? One phrase : He has never eaten fish before.
I dont know why you are defending it.
I mean… common… I am talking about the Meta affecting people that would potentially like to do keys 10+ and higher. Not DOING, but potentially…
He deliberately said : I only do 8+, and if I could I would do ZERO M+ at all because I hate M+ with all my soul. So here is my opinion about doing a 12+…
Nah, it´s ok, I only have KSH+ in every second or third season on this char since SL S2… on a pure altaccount that has numerous other KSH+ incl the evoker we started with, all in the same guild. So I obviously have no clue whatsoever about mythic + and have never really subjected myself to the system or properly engaged with it .
Interactions like this merely reinforce why I don´t post in forums with my mainaccount, makes it much easier to sift out the users that arent worth the inevitable headaches.
I really enjoy doing those levels with friends/family. It gives for really nice and relaxing gameplay and chit-chat in Discord.
