I feel that, back in the early days of WoW, during Vanilla and BC. Maybe even Wrath. If we burned down Teldrassil back then, the entire Horde Community would have roared with cheers!
Yeah! Screw you, Night Elves!!
The mentality and lore is now so disappointing. Dying is pointless, as shadowlands has shown. Every battle the Horde and Alliance fights is pointless, because there are “greater powers at play”. Can I not just crush the humans without having to worry about “Peace Treaties” and “The Void and Death” having a tug-o-war for my soul?
The playerbase aged and might actually have matured in some regards. Killing the “other” might just not leave the same taste now as it did then.
The game would have been mostly non-judgemental about the act back in these days. Today it certainly isn’t. If all the NPCs from “your team” tell you how bad it is, and start up their resistance, it’s much harder to see it as a victory for your team. The same act might have been more celebrated by the Horde player base, if the Horde characters actually thought of it as a victory. But even Sylvanas herself didn’t see it like that, so anyone who wants to, has to find the justification for himself.
Back then alts and faction changes weren’t much of a thing. Today it is relatively common to have played both sides, back then it wasn’t.
People would probably do that these days if it werent for how the story framed the whole thing in such an horrendous way.
We’ve gleefully slaughtered scores of other races civilians in a way that made it all seemed as some comical scenario. Only because the portrayal of it all was made in an almost cheerful way.
Those are the sort of events that can be cheered at.
But people will obviously not feel all giddy about it, if it’s all framed under some dark and questionable light that tries its best to showcase how awful and cruel it all is.
A victory has to feel like it, not just look like it. If you go half-assed, it wont feel nor look like one. Perceptions from back then was also incredibly different.
No one is kidding themselves that to this day, fictional and fantasy writing uses grim elements to tell awesome stories we all know and love and have grown up with. We still probably will because in the end, fiction and fantasy has to stay fiction and fantasy, with its own borderlines situated.
Nowadays that is blurred and often comparisons to real life and fantasy continues to be a thing despite their very definitions being quite obvious and very clear in the most basic sense. Yet it is still happens in spite of this sacrosanct idea.
Personally, my grievances with much of the Horde - and Sylvanas at that - is of a different scale than what happened to Teldrassil, but passions and direction changes. You don’t have to look far between 2019 and 2021 to see the huge amount of er… ‘passionate’ evidence.
I mean, Blizzard has again and again reinforced the message that the Alliance and Horde have to work together to save Azeroth. Even with how trite it got and how often we went back to fighting each other, I guess it actually affected us deep down.
War of Thorns was one of the highlights for my Horde career, it felt like good old horde vs alliance hatred and it had been missing from the game for a long time.
I don’t place my real life values on my Orc Warlock, my warlock is only loyal to himself and power, and a part of his character is to be a member of the Horde because it allows him to wreac havoc and destruction on Alliance members without having to feel remorse and in the same time further improve the Hordes cause, which again further serves his own motives.
The conflict between the factions is one of the big things that I enjoy in this game and I am all up for treaties between factions when they make sense, but it feels lile blizzard is forcing certain factions and characters to “choose” the peace option only because it’s morally right even if doesn’t make a lot if any sense.
Would be nice to see some horde npc talk about highlights in the 4th war and not the same old “we did bad I regret” kind of stuff.
Horde as an example used to have characters I could relate to with my warlock, nowadays it seems like everybody are the same and feel only the same for everything.
We can choke each other or argue each other to no end as to who is the favourite one, or the neglected one, but in the end we all just feel bad regardless.
There’s no actual meaningful ‘victory’ anymore. It’s just a cat and mouse game with a predictable ending that pretty much says that no one wins, everyone loses.
Sure you can but then you have to learn to accept their are consequences for your faction more than empty Varian speeches, Revenge is bad, lets forgive them for the thousand’th time for commiting genocide and destroying a capital city/entire zone etc
The horde playerbase really shouldnt be wishing for coherant storytelling because if that existed there would be a few Horde capitals destroyed, zones either captured or destroyed etc instead of the sh!t show we had in Cata/MoP and BFA when it comes to consequences.
In fact, the Horde losing a few cities and zones will actually give the Alliance a spine and won’t feel like the Horde is beating up really loud puppies. There’s a reason why even the Horde community is supportive and clamouring every time the Alliance or some figure in the Alliance - aka Tyrande - does something aggressive and cool.
There is nothing coherent about maintaining a faction that has had 2 civil wars and identity crisises within 5 years. People like Baine worked two times with the Alliance to depose Horde leaders. This isn’t a family, this isn’t a front against the Alliance, this isn’t a unified culture, protecting itself from outside influence. This is just a gameplay contrivance that’s hard to get rid of.
Even if we just assume fully unprovoced wanton aggression… why the everliving fork would Tauren, Goblins, and Orcs decide to go to war with the Alliance over the desacrated Forsaken lands right now? Why exactly would they try to defend the ruins of a human kingdom from human invasion? Because the Forsaken managed it so well for the Horde? Because the Forsaken really need that land to grow their food? Because they couldn’t bear to see the poor Forsaken sad about losing their home, when they are supposed to redefine themselves anyways, and just plagued their own capital? That would be reasons to jump into a new world war? Come on.
To have an unifying attack on the Horde you would have to attack Orgrimmar or Thunderbluff. Tyrande might have done that, sure, but that ship has sailed. Turalyon has his sights on other zones, that make much more sense.
I mean, I’m sure that any attack on any target would be used to start up the war crap again, but to call that “coherence” is more than questionable to me. The faction conflict is a dead undead horse. Nothing is uniting the factions, not even animosity towards the other.
That’s the gist though. It was stated that apparently, quote by quote, that the Horde playerbase shouldn’t be asking for a coherent storyline because they would lose a lot of the time. Bit of a strange statement, but not completely untrue either.
I suspect the point of that post was to play the old wise veteran with sage advice or something? I don’t know. Personally, I viewed it as something to be welcomed if written right… of which can be applied to just about anywhere in this narrative.
Either way, yes, we’ve gone so far out of the point or need of faction wars now that the repeated attempts and repeated divides have sullied that sense of realistic connection. It is also becoming questionable as to if the Horde’s connection are just as realistic as building metal structures bearing huge braziers in the middle of what should be a scorching desert is logical or not.
Much as I love playing Horde almost 100% of my time, I can’t deny the flaws that personally stand out more loudly than tired-megalomaniac-tyrant-ruler-with-dreams-of-destrustion version X.
If you want a coherent Horde storyline…I’d really recommend you wish for one that doesn’t involve the Alliance at all. Something like 8.0 Zandalar or Frostfire. Something that strikes cultural themes Horde players prefer, and enemies you can actually beat or be beaten by, without balance and fairness concerns popping up.
We should be able to be distinct without being at war. And if conflict naturally arises, it can be at the fringes, where it doesn’t immediately throw the world into chaos and makes everyone hate every one on the other side.
Honestly given the races involved I’d say that having such is the coherent bit.
An alliance of convenience that sometimes ends up tearing apart when the cultural clash reaches certain limit.
Allies often disagree and fight each other. And this comes doubly natural if those involved come from cultures narratively designed to exacerbate their conflictive aspects.
For real? The unnatural bits often come when the story bends over backwards to turn any Alliance member into a human “Yes Man”.
I honestly think that neither side should ask for “coherence”.
Horde may get away with some of their stuff, but people should bear in mind that the main reason for the Alliance to still be around, is basically because some Horde members suddenly decided to either give up on their grips, or actively start fighting those that didn’t.
It’s fine to point out that the story was bent to have the Alliance give up on revenge near the end. But it’s worth noting that for that to happen, the story had to be twisted first, in order to have the Horde suddenly start killing each other for the sake of their enemies well-being. And this happened on both civil wars.
That’s actually what I’m saying. But in WoW it doesn’t, because it can’t. What was the convenience of taking in the Forsaken again? Something about helping to “heal” them? Yeah, no.
As far as story goes, the internal conflicts of the Horde in the Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria expansions was perhaps the best story we’ve gotten post Wrath. It was brewing in the background whilst more important stuff was going on and the resolution with Vol’jin elevated to Warchief was satisfying.
It’s just… everything goes wrong after that point. In Legion I could have given Blizzard the benefit of the doubt that Vol’jin’s death actually had a purpose, but it has been five years and in the grand scheme of things it seems Vol’jin’s death is but a footnote. He had to be put aside to tell this strange merry-go-round narrative revolving around Sylvanas that ended in yet another civil war for the Horde. And the resolution of this time around was not satisfying.
In order for the story to make sense at this point we must admit that the Horde lost and they’re now a subject to the Alliance. The Horde doesn’t even have proper leadership anymore, and the Alliance seems to wield significant influence over this new “horde council”. Valeera has shown her face more and more in regards to Horde affairs, and she is aligned with the Alliance, right? We have characters like Calia being introduced to the Horde who also seem like an Alliance puppet. Baine and Thrall are overwhelmingly open to cooperating with the Alliance.
So the Horde lost and its current leadership is not very likely to mount a retaliation at all. And I doubt any rebellious factions could pose much of a threat to the combined might of the Alliance and the “new Horde”. The war should thus be over indefinitely. Good thing those floating fiery head guys are into blood sport to keep the PVP aspect alive, though!
Nah. Both Horde and Alliance have been subjugated by Anduin and an internationalist approach. Anduin has been the face of that movement for years, even when his father was still alive, but if his current storyline should make him unsuitable for that, it is just as likely that Thrall or Baine would take up the role of world leader. This isn’t about Horde or Alliance values or loyalties. It’s about the writers’ modern values that are imposed upon a world that never had them before on either side of the faction divide.
I disagree completely.
The Horde was still Thrall’s Horde, and not villainous. A larger part of the playerbase than today had played WC3 and identified and symphatized with that Horde
I honestly think that the story direction was initially a different one.
Inner monologues, visual cues, and narrative signals, pointed at a plot that had Sylvanas character grow into the role she didn’t want initially.
Much like it was going to happen with Garrosh in Cataclysm and Wrath, the plot seemed directed at having a more rounded character arch in which Sylvanas widened her views and mindset in order to turn into a more worthy Warchief candidate.
….And just like it happened with Garrosh, said arch seemed to be discarded further down the line in order to have yet again another villainous plot for her to be condemned and removed.
Only this time, it failed on all the fronts where MoP succeeded when managing said sort of story.
I had the same feeling. I never liked Sylvanas as Warchief, but originally it seemed like they wanted her to live up to the role. Aside from her making some kind of deal with Helya in Legion there wasn’t much that pointed to her sudden turn to (“morally grey”) genocidal inclinations.
That’s partly why I dislike the narrative so much. Like I said before, the civil war that broke out in Mists of Pandaria had been brewing in the background for an entire expansion. Garrosh hadn’t won any favours with the tauren due to killing Cairne in a less-than-honourable duel (although if I recall he was unaware of the poison used on his weapon). The trolls were having second thoughts, and the blood elves started considering switching allegiances. It all culminated in a civil war where Vol’jin, the guy representing representation, won out.
In Legion we were sold a narrative where Sylvanas, the unlikely Warchief, goes through great lengths to earn the trust of the Horde and we’re told here and there that she actually does care – only to have the rug swept from beneath our feet. I would not have liked it if the Horde rallied unified behind Sylvanas, but I would have preferred it over these constant twists and turns.
I still find it jarring that the tribal faction had two civil wars that relied heavily on some kind of feudal fealty to the Warchief being in place. “He is Thrall’s chosen successor, so of course I have to send my troops to destroy Theramore or die. Anything else would be high treason to our glorious empire!”. “She is Vol’jin’s chosen successor, so of course she can start a war that includes my troops as soon as the opportunity arrises. Anything else would be high treason to our glorious empire!”
It’s just so damnably stupid… It’s not that they couldn’t have fit those wars into the tribal/survivalist dynamics the Horde was supposed to have, it’s that they made it clear that they wouldn’t deign to even think of it. And suddenly the structure that Thrall build is… an unconditional absolute dictatorship. And after Garrosh that… isn’t challenged at all.
