And that pre-raid BiS is just BiS in theory.
In practice, you’ll be getting into Karazhan and getting upgrades before you’ve even had enough time to gather the mats for that supposed “pre-raid BiS”.
People are just gimping themselves if they spend an extra week for “pre-raid LW BiS items” to save a few minutes in Kara, instead of directly going into Kara where they get the upgrades that make said LW items irrelevant.
Because world of enchanters is much better? They kept the “requirement” of 5 leathworkers but added a requirement of 20 enchanters/engineers.
I’m sure RP players will be able to rationalize it somehow
You’re absolutely right insofar as claiming that there will always be a BiS profession as long as there are benefits exclusive to a certain profession. However, I don’t think you can quite compare what LW brought to what Enchanting (let alone JC) brings.
The “problem” with Leatherworking is that drums were not just a personal buff. Therefore, if a person doesn’t have drums, it directly impacts other players’ performance. And 80 haste isn’t exactly the equivalent of Classic’s world buffs, but it’s also a bit more impactful than +8 stats or +24 spellpower. The partywide impact of drums is what leads to the kind of peer pressure that forces players into using drums. By contrast, ring enchant are a personal buff. If a person is missing them, they’re not directly harming other players. Sure, you might argue that they’re indirectly harming other players by “being weaker”, but the same could literally be said about, I dunno, having a T4 piece instead of a T5. It’s certainly much less impactful than the lack of drums for the party involved.
Mind you, I did use brackets when I said “problem”, because I didn’t personally have much of an issue using LW on my main - not when I have an army of alts who can take whatever profession I can’t fit on my main. But I can see how other players may be inconvenienced by this. And, tbh, being able to bring one of my alts to a raid without having to feel bad about that character not having drums isn’t exactly something I will find myself regretting.
As an aside, it’s also more tactically interesting to have to decide when to use drums than just chaining through them all during the whole fight.
Why is it a problem though? It’s the only profession where you and others benefit from it directly, seems like a perfect thing to have in an MMO, perhaps more professions should offer similar mechanics rather than gutting something that could have been great.
If you don’t have the personal bis professions you are harming the rest of the raid as it lowers your performance which affects them, sure it is not the same extent.
Gear is something you will be rejected for, however for guilds etc professions are something you have a choice of, if the tier token you need drops and you are next in line to recieve it is not something you have direct control over.
The same people complaining about this “issue” are the same people that wouldn’t get it in the first place, likely in guilds without 40 engineers in classic, not getting WCB as alliance and so on. It’s people not willing to go all the way and want people that are willing to go all the way to be on the samefooting. WCB on alliance in classic is far more extreme than any profession requirement though.
The decision of when to use drums is not very interesting, they will be used on CD as everyone will be running 12 warlocks, right?
Enchanting, Engineering, Jewelcrafting have other benefits to your character apart from “can use drums”. Having any of those on a Mage I can justify from an RP perspective. Not to mention Tailoring on cloth user or healer and BS on melee weapon user. LEATHER WORKING on a Mage or Warrior or Pala? Not so much. It just feel wrong and “gamey”.
Oh, it turns out interplanetary superluminal travel using unstable demonic magic can get you killed? Who could have guessed! The travesty!
maybe u should play wc3 first if u think drums don’t have any justification RP wise
why should a non priest healer be a tailor? Why should the gear be better if you made it yourself rather than another tailor with the exact same tailoring skill, using the exact same pattern? On top of this you need a leatherworker in your party, but you have absolutely no need for someone to be blacksmith etc in your party, gathering professions offer nothing.
If you want your RP justification to make sense then you should not gain any benefit from someone else using drums.
It doesn’t really change my life either way, and I couldn’t give a crap about RP in this case (I mean, we’ve been playing with or against clothadins for 2 years by now) but paragraphs like this,
makes it sound to me like you’re just salty that you no longer have another means of showing your “hardcoreness” to “casuals”. Maybe, you should focus less on glorified time sinks and more on actual displays of performance. If you’re actually better than “casuals”, you don’t need the game to create more ways of merely leveraging your gametime to prove it.
How is leatherworking a time sink when it’s the only profession (not so much anymore) that added a level of skill to pve?
None of the stuff I mentioned is a time sink. It’s also the only profession that could potentially have “actual displays of performance”
The actual time sink professions were JC/Ench when you kept the bonuses from rerolling, which I’m glad they fixed
What skill are you even talking about? Chaining drums takes no more skill than using an addon to track the internal CD of your proc trinkets. If anything, limiting drums to just 30s every 2 minutes gives the leader’s decision of when to call for it more tactical weight than just “guys, keep clicking this thing every 2 mins”.
If this is your idea of skill, then I can understand why you wouldn’t like having to prove your actual “hardcoreness” through other means.
Stacking up properly during boss mechanics will add a layer of skill to do so properly.
Keep clicking it will generally be the best option.
I don’t think there is much skill involved in this game but at the same time you have people with sub 99 parses which is jsut the tip of the iceberg
You dont keep them when changing proffessions any more so they are no longer time sinks
That’s only a temporary state of the item - it’ll go back to its 40y state with ZA patch, so that’s kind of a moot point. Tinnitus, on the other hand, will stay for the entirety of the expansion.
It certainly doesn’t justify you claiming this to be “the worst change you could have done”, and I don’t see how this has anything to do with your complaint about the “LW/Ench/Engi” meta.
is one sentence too much for u?
it is the worst possible change when they have both a ZA version and tinnitus throughout the expansion. two poor changes adding up to one awful nerf.
they didn’t fix anything just moved the issue to ench/engi
I played TBC on pservers for 2 years and believe me when i say: even with 40 yards drums and an addon that whispered you to drum and made a sound noise as well, people have been able to mess up the drum rotation. Besides that drum rotation is an element that forces player to work together as it should be in an Raid. Its not that hard to coordinate but it people still need to do it.
Thank you Blizzard for doing the right thing.
Maybe you’ve been playing in the wrong guilds/pugs I guess. Either way, this hardly ruins the game for me.
Well, i would say that the average tbc pserver player, i played with, needed a higher level of skill to clear the content than the average classic player nowadays due to the fact that the content was heavily overtuned and in wow classic you can just get worldbuffs and ignore mechanics. So imagine the average classic player need to coordinate drum rotation. It would be hilarious.
Nothing to do with difficulty, more that I was going to level leatherworking and was happy to do so because some pre-bis and BIS items come from leatherworking anyway + the drums were a really strong dps buff, Rogues and Warriors gained a lot of dps from them.
If it had been raidwide (but not stacked with the other drums) my DPS would not have been affected (aside from the lack of the 1 AP usage per group rotation in a raid with 25LW) and you’d still only have 4 required LW in a raid, which is 1 less than you need with this change.
Like it or not, their solution made LW not mandatory by changing the meta, when they could have had it both ways.
As I said above, and I made a video about this months ago too. You just make them not stack and the problem is solved.