The promise of Jaina actually being relevant again at the start of BFA was actually wild. The Warbringers cinematic had me legit stoked about playing the game just because the possibilities were endless. Then, Blizz did what they always do and dropped the ball. Can you imagine if Jaina actually started to hate Thrall for his passive behaviour? In WC3, he gave a promise that Jaina would not regret helping out the Horde, and yet so many times she’d seen just how wrong she was when she didn’t listen to her father. And Thrall? Well, that dunce just went about his way, not giving a single thought as to what happens to either Horde or Alliance. The only reason he came back was because Sylvanas sent assasins to kill him and his wife. That’s it.
So just imagine: Jaina and Thrall finally meeting again after all these years and her chewing the everliving s***t out of him for not doing his part, for letting the Horde loose on the world, for not keeping his promise. The last thing she says is that for the sake of Anduin, Kalia and her brother, she is willing to give the Horde one final chance to set things right, but if they squander it - hell hath no fury than a woman wronged.
This is World of Peacecraft, don’t have high expectations. Everyone befriend each other whatever they do to each other. Story is made for 7 years old kids, so keep your expectations low so that you won’t be disappointed.
Yeah but like, why? “Oh there Is this incredibly influential figure in the other world Superpower, I wish he was more aggressive because that would be great!” Said no one sensible ever…
To be fair, the person who actually made sure there -was- a Horde, is very, very dead. Famously so. His Son ‘Succeeded’ him. If Terenas Menethil had listened to Stromgarde, Gilneas and Quel’thalas at the end of the Second War, there simply would not be a Horde. I mean that is -why- all three of those nations left the Alliance…
You’ve kind of got it the wrong way round there. Complexity is an adult story, simple “We hate’s them coz they ain’t us” is a more childlike and simplistic story.
The two factions constantly fighting ‘just because’ would indeed be a kids motif reduced to the level of a child’s ‘He-Man’ cartoon.
The two factions in a Cold War situation is however much more nuanced and complex.
I can’t imagine how boring the story would be if it was all just Horde and Aliance smacking each other in different locations in every expansion for 17 years with something happening in the background.
except that ingame the alliance is in no position to make any threat to the horde: the entirety of the alliance plus the rebel horde were hardly a match for the loyalist horde in BFA. so a united horde is no match for the alliance.
the horde also has an intercontinental cannon pointed right at stormwind, and access to blight and mana bomb technology.
the alliance has a blingdicar with the batteries so low, that it could not even be used to ferry civilians out of teldrassil.
that’s probably why the horde could get out of paying any kind of reparation for the fourth war despite being the unprovoked perpetrator of warcrimes.
When I mentioned Thrall being passive I meant the lack of effort from him to negotiate for peace. Quite literally Jaina did all the work for him and he STILL screwed things up from time to time.
Also, bugging off in the middle of faction tension peaking and leaving a militant as his successor was a stupid move in every way possible. He then returned, sure, telling Jaina things will be fine and that zort of thing won’t happen again… and then leaves again one expansion later. And then the Horde does the exact same thing. Let’s be honest, Thrall really didn’t do much to uphold peace between the Horde and Alliance, notoriously so, in fact.
Oh yeah, definitely. I think some of it might be because as much as they wanted Thrall to be a peacemaker, it might have jarred with some people’s ‘conventional’ view of things if an -Orc-was the reasonable one, and not the one being placated/talked around by a reasonable human. Maybe, I don’t know.
Most definitely. Garrosh was wrong when he said Thrall made him what he was, but Thrall really didn’t help matters by putting an incompetent Xenophobe on the throne. I mean those who played back then will remember that Garrosh actually kicks off on Vol’jin -before Thrall has even left the room!- Thrall should have just turned round at that point and went “You know what, I’ve changed my mind, you’re an idiot, get off my throne.”
Or if the Night Elves actually got any resolution or positive moments after being wiped out, losing all their zones etc.
The Horde is quite literally in no way shape or form a match for the alliance on the contrary. They are in shambles and massive disarray, the undead are distrusted AGAIN, the Zandalari actively question wether joining the Horde really was a smart move, goblins are inthe middle of powergrabs due to Galliwicks disappearance with Gazlow being able to somewhat controll the situation. Also, Thrall and Baine, the 2 leaders that arguably held the Horde together are missing with the only 2 leaders advocating for peace left being Lorthemar and Thallysra (then again, these 2 are heavily biased). There’s also Kalia who wishes to rebuild Lordaeron, but let’s be honest, if she does - I HEAVILY doubt she will have her people stay as part of the Horde.
The Alliance on the other hand is at much more advantageous position: the dwarf tribes are united as one and ready to kick some *ss and take some names, the night elves and worgen are pissed and are ready go for the kill with the only two people containing them being Malfurion and, surprisingly, Genn, Alliance now has an experienced military general with an entire army of supersoldiers from space infused with the light as well as void-controlling super-elves led by THE head of the former Thalassian rangers. Also, the Alliance now has a somewhat descent navy with top-notch admirals with Cul-Titan fleets.
How is the Horde stronger than Alliance again? Would you like to elaborate?
Which hasn’t happened, so good job we don’t need to worry about that.
It’s different strengths. Both Factions are in a pretty poor state to try and prosecute a war at the moment. As Genn remarks to Anduin the Alliance is suffering severe manpower issues “That’s the last of the soldier’s, next we’ll have to start calling up the farmers” and the Horde is pretty much Bankrupt (We know this because of Lor’themar’s musings in the recent short story with him and Thalyssra) and Gods know but Wars are expensive things to have!
Neither side is ready for a 5th War.
Oddly I’d question that, or rather the first part. The Horde actually seem to have got their stuff together for once, perhaps because of their new leadership style. I’d agree on the Forsaken bit, because there is going to be residual mistrust there, but you can see even in the Saurfang vs Sylvanas fight that it isn’t so clear cut. When Sylvanas comes out with that unnamed female Forsaken, as her banner bearer, who is carrying her daggers for her (So presumably Someone of trust and bearing in Forsaken society), and Sylvanas betrays the Horde and says it is ‘Nothing’, you can see Sylvanas’ own banner bearer give her the side eye and her eyes narrow in a sort of “You freakin’ what?” kind of way, so it looks like Sylvie has used up her ‘Goodwill’ credentials even with the Forsaken.
Sure, they’ll be rooting out Sylvanas aligned Traitors, but those Forsaken who are Loyalists to the Horde are pretty OK, if a bit homeless.
They’re not really in a position to jump ship right now, is the thing. That ship has ‘aheh’ sailed as it were, the instance Kul Tiras sided with the Alliance. Talanji ain’t stupid. She knows this, and she knows the real architect of her father’s death was that damned Banshee who betrayed everyone else in the Horde as well.
It pretty much looks like that power has already been well and truly grabbed, and that Gazlowe has the Goblins under control. In fact he has more Goblins at his command than Gallywix ever did, now that he has consolidated the Cartels.
Ehhhh not really. Remember, it was a Triumvirate that set up the Council, one of whom (Lor’themar) is still on Azeroth and still very much in control (He’s at Grommash Hold giving out the orders to people at the start of Shadowlands, no idea if that is still the case, my Horde characters are either past that point or not hit it yet) Him and Thalyssra aren’t really biased either. I mean we see Lor’themar’s reaction in the Nightborne recruitment thread when Alleria extends Anduin’s invitation to join the Alliance. He sarcastically tells her to get lost. Thalyssra is probably still (understandably) smarting from Kaldorei being rubbish at diplomacy, like they always are. Weird that, both Elven races in the Horde are either wholly or in part there because Kaldorei are just rubbish diplomats… 
Ain’t her choice. Calia is not on the Horde Council, that is Lilian Voss. Blizzard have also flat out stated that Calia is neither the new Forsaken ruler, nor is she being set up to be. She -is- in Shadowlands, but as we see, that is because of her personal agenda in wanting to find out what finally happened to her bro Arthas. Back on Azeroth, Lilian is the Forsaken representative on the Council (Though she too, like Calia, does not want to lead, Lilian actually -asked- Calia to lead them, Calia said no.)
Probably pound for pound the strongest military force the Alliance have currently, which is good, reuniting the three clans was a good thematic move for them.
Yeah, I mean I don’t know why Malfurion is being like that, but then he’s just a ridiculous character anyway, Genn however, I was of the impression that he fully backs Tyrande gunning for vengeance, and says so to Anduin.
Meh, so what. Basically they have Vindicators led by a man who is going to have to play some extreme ‘catch up’ on what has happened since the Second War. Seriously, he has no idea of the capabilities or personalities of the enemy forces. I mean Thrall was a -baby- last time he was on Azeroth (He might not even have been born) Baine and the Tauren weren’t even in the Horde, the Forsaken didn’t -Exist-, in fact the only ones he could possibly know about would be the Thalassian Elves, but now 90% of them are on the -other side-.
He’s basically got a lot to catch up on, before he could be an effective General in that sense.
They aren’t though, really, are they? They’re just Elves with void powers who may or may not prove to be a liability, who number as a ‘cult’. That’s like saying the Horde have Vampire Elves. I mean it’s not technically wrong. Blood Elves can drain the life from living creatures…
Also Alleria was -NEVER- the head of the Thalassian rangers. She was a Farstrider Ranger Captain. (says so on her statue at Stormwind gates, and the Thas’dorah artefact knowledge) Farstrider ranks kind of go ‘Ranger, Farstrider, Lieutenant, Ranger Lieutenant, Captain, Ranger Captain, Ranger Lord, Ranger General’.
So when Alleria was on Azeroth last, Lor’themar Theron for example, was her boss. Halduron Brightwing was her boss, Renthar Hawkspear was her boss, and of course, Lil’ Sister Sylvanas was her boss.
(I’m such a blood elf lore nerd… 
)
Navies are pretty much the same. Some of the Golden Fleet remains, and some of the Horde navies were untouched during the 4th War, and whilst the Kul Tirans are amazing sailors made even better by their Tide-Sages, they did also take a pasting during the War.
Neither is. That’s kind of why it is a Cold War standoff, an Armistice as it were.
To me it makes sense. I’m sure Russia and USA would put their differences a side if there was massive Demons dropping in to wipe out the whole planet.
Uh yes, did you not pay attention during BfA?
I did, did you?
The Kaldorei have not been wiped out. They emphatically have not lost all their zones, and they are on the warpath.
nearly wiped out to the point where there’s no future for them and they lost every zone besides Darkshore, which is mostly destroyed and blighted and also unsafe from the Horde right at their doorstep
That just isn’t true! The vast majority of their military is intact, because that’s how the Horde got to Darnassus so swiftly with their Blitzkrieg, the Kaldorei citizenry were in the process of being rescued, I mean you see that when doing the quests Alliance side. For sure, not -all- of them, but as many as possible, and those not on Teldrassil were absolutely fine!
One Zone. One Zone changed. Teldrassil. Darkshore is back in Kaldorei hands, Ashenvale is the same as it has been since Vanilla, as in ‘Contested’, every single other zone with a significant Kaldorei presence was absolutely unaffected by the War of Thorns.
That is the current lore standing of things. They lost their capital, same as the Forsaken lost theirs. The Kaldorei in other zones outside of that route of march were absolutely untouched and retain their land and now it seems are consolidating Hyjal.
Oh yes, that’s why they couldn’t even reclaim Ashenvale…
And we failed to rescue them since they were pretty much all wiped out in Teldrassil, Ashenvale and Darkshore (and then their souls obliterated).
Except that they were killed in Ashenvale and Darkshore?..
Teldrassil is destroyed, Darkshore has its towns destroyed and some blight and Ashenvale went from Night Elf control to Horde control. The Night Elves gave the Horde Azshara after MoP and received Ashenvale via a treaty
Their starting zone, capital, another questing zone, and nearly their entire population
Uh you do realize that all their 3 zones were wiped out, right? Not just Teldrassil.
Nope, because Hyjal is also a neutral zone.
I’ll come and blight where you live, kill all plants and living creatures then gonna leave that place. Then I’ll say “The place where Brigante lives is back in his hands, everything is okay”.
You don’t make sense at all .
They lost their capital because of horde, Forsaken lost their capital because muh qween blighted it and it is an uninhabitable place now because of “blight” that was used in Darkshore but according to you Darkshore is good no problem at all 
Which has been Contested since VANILLA! That’s not a new thing!
Did you play it on both factions, because that’s not actually how it plays out. We -did- actually rescue quite a lot of them. Not all, by any means, but quite a lot. I mean Mia Greymane is one of the last off the tree…
Did you actually do the scenario? The -Vast- Majority of the Kaldorei Army wasn’t even -there- at the time! That’s patently apparent if you do it Horde Side…
The Actual status of Ashenvale has not been changed since Vanilla. Yes, the Horde withdrew troops after MoP, but guess what, so did the Night Elves supposedly after Azshara. Both zones remain contestested.
Which are the same thing.
Which one. Because I’m pretty sure they can still quest in Ashenvale, just exactly the same as before. So which other zone?
Did not happen. Yes,
They took a pasting. Boo hoo, join the club. What makes Night Elves so damned special that they are untouchable by massive losses, when pretty much every race has taken them eh?
Teldrassil=Gone. Darkshore=Fully back in Kaldorei hands, Ashenvale= Contested, as it always has been.
Kaldorei heavy territories in the mid belt of Kalimdor?=Untouched by the War. Winterspring=Untouched by the War. Hyjal=Untouched by the War.
Not according to Tyrande it isn’t…
Did…you…ever play any of WC3, or WoW since Vanilla?
I mean you do know you just described -exactly- what happened to the Blood Elves and Quel’thalas right? Like Exactly, what happened to the Blood Elves and Quel’thalas… As in, I don’t even know where to go with that, I mean that is an integral part of the whole world lore…
Why is it, why is it, that Night Elf Fans are absolutely fine with these things happening to other playable races, but the instant it happens to their Treehouse suddenly the sky is falling and it is all so unfair and horrible and everyone is dead and Blizzard hate them…
It’s not a particularly adult look really…
S’alright, as we saw in the BfA cinematics, Saint Jaina Mary Sue Proudmoore can just fix it.
Personally if I was Genn I would be bloody livid with her. “Gilneas has been blighted all this time, and you can cast a level 3 spell and just handwave it away? Some Ally you are!”
That is an unfair comparison. Belfs were wiped by one of the strongest forces at the time that literally nothing could stop. Also, the scourge were not “the good guys”. The Horde on the other hand is often showed to be trying to be peacefull and loving and caring society… except not really because the warcrime counter goes through the roof, the factions are ruled by borderline imbecilic leaders and the council thing they have right now is basically a circus.
Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that Night Elves were genocided by a side of conflict that is constantly built up to be the poor opressed good guys that had missteps. For every warcrime the Horde commits they get a slap on the wrist. Moreover, whenever they are actually rightfully punished - people moan and cry about it.
I expect people to ask me to elaborate, so I will. Kairne basically constantly moaned about Garrosh instead of actually doing anything to teach him or guide him. He just essentially wanted to 1v1 him. Garrosh in the meantime literally carried the Horde campaign in Northrend on his shoulders and helped punt THE LICH KING (!!!) of his throne. The entirety of Horde that isn’t braindead likes the guy, however the other faction leaders literally do EVERYTHING they can to just spit at the notion of unity in Horde. The Undead are doing their shenanigans with the plague even though it cost the Horde far, FAR too much at the wrathgate, and so Garrosh was mad. Kairn kept being an *ss and died because of it (I know the blade was poisoned by cultists, still, way to go), and somehow that is the fault of Garrosh for some reason. Vol’Jin just keeps dissing orders and does whatever, and Lorthemar just… what does he do exactly? Oh, he’s negotiating to get back to alliance, how quaint. Naturally Garrosh did what he thought was best to save whatever was left of the loyal Horde. The reason his actions are “somewhat” justified is because they make sense. The loyalist belves snuck a manabomb through Dalaran, which then wiped an alliance city off the face of Azeroth. Jaina and the High elves find out about it and confront the belves, who act like douchebags and refuse to cooperate or help investigate. They then got slammed the hell out of Dalaran. Now, what would a wise leader do in such a situation?
Is it a) Calmly and rationaly deduce that the entire fustercluck is a huge misunderstanding and a mistake and attempt to fix it? Or b) throw a tantrum at a reasonable reaction on your people being complicit to a heinos warcrime and just call off the arrangement for Belves to return to Alliance.
We all know what happened there, don’t we?
Bold words for a man whose faction’s Gary Stew is a literal Pickle Jesus that solves problems that not even dragons can canonically. Also, Jaina didn’t dispell the cloud like it was nothing, she merely pushed it away onto new territories, which you can see in the cineamtic. The reason the same can’t be done for Gilneas is simple: where, and most importantly, how exactly do you shove all the toxic poison that sank into the very soil and seeped into every leaf and stalk in vicinity?
Personally If I was literally anybody on that battlefield, Alliance OR Horde, I would be crying in blissfull tears that I didn’t die from the plague because that happened.
Oh undoubtedly, the Scourge were an absolute menace, but the point remains that what some fans keep whinging on about when it comes to Night Elves is nothing that hasn’t -already- happened to other Races in game and yet that was just fine and dandy?
Ehhh is it though? I mean look at it. Orcs have an actual Peon class that they don’t even try to dress up as anything else, calling them actual Peons, Trolls only just got out of the whole racist cannibals thing, Tauren, well, yeah, OK, they generally are pretty chill unless narked, Forsaken, do I really need to say more? Blood Elves are utterly selfish and cruel at times, and Goblins are utterly venal and mercenary, and that’s just the core races. About the only ones that are actually nice and peaceful are the Tauren…
Thrall -was- Good for a time. Garrosh was an incompetent Emo with Daddy issues, Sylvanas is just as mad as a box of frogs. The only recently competent one was Vol’jin who actually -got- what the Horde was about. As for the Council, it seems to be working pretty efficiently at the moment; Two of the triumvirate who set it up were whisked off by Sylvanas’ spooky angels and yet it carried on functioning, orders were given and carried out, plans put in motion etc etc. It’s a heck tonne more efficient than if they still had a Warchief, as now the Horde would have been decapitated in terms of Leadership…
That’s because Alliance fans don’t want to be the Bad Guys! I mean they literally got some quests from BfA changed by whinging so much. Remember the Purge Squads? Probably not. Why not? They were in the PTR, but oh no, Alliance can’t do evil things, so there was huge uproar on the US forums and Twitter. End Result? “Oh err, no, they’re not called Purge Squads anymore, and they’re not setting fire to these neutral people, no, just ermm, burning some caravans and things, they’re still good guys”
Hmm, not sure about that. People who main Horde only (I mean to be fair I play both Factions, so perhaps my viewpoint is different) don’t actually tend to moan about it, because it kind of goes with the ‘bad boy’ territory.
Umm, Not really. Cairne -did- try to teach him and guide him. For that matter Vol’jin tried to, but Garrosh turned on Vol’jin before Thrall had even left the room after making Garrosh Warchief! Garrosh had made it clear he was not taking any advice but his own.
Whaaaaat? Did you play it Hordeside? I’m not being sarcastic for once in my life, that’s a genuine question. Garrosh did absolutely Jack all in Northrend.
He shows up in Borean Tundra. Stamps on some models, mocks Saurfang for having a conscience. In the meantime Saurfang just quietly gets on with directing the Horde war effort to success. We don’t even -See- Garrosh do -anything- (I mean literally he isn’t in the game) until the Argent Tournament when he turns up with Thrall to watch it and starts shooting his mouth off at the Alliance, he’s not even -at- Icecrown Citadel to punt the Lich king off anything! Four Horde Leader types figures do impressive stuff in WotLK. Saurfang the Elder basically runs the War whilst Garrosh is stamping on models, Saurfang Junior leads the forces at the Wrathgate to his untimely demise, Sylvanas (Much as I hate that character) is instrumental in the lead up to the storming of Icecrown Citadel, and Aethas Sunreaver coordinates the war effort against Malygos and getting the Dragonflights on side.
Umm…That was Varimathras and Putress…It was an attempted Coup, not the Forsaken as a whole…
Cairne was giving solid advice, both Cairne and Garrosh alike were tricked by Twilight Hammer cultists, Magatha Grimtotem poisoned Gorehowl, leading to Garrosh winning (If you read the account of the duel, he was getting his backside handed to him by Cairne), and then…and -then- when Magatha used this as a chance to try and stage a coup over Thunder Bluff, instead of acting like Warchief of the Horde, Garrosh goes “Meh, not my problem”. It’s like, -what?- you were just tricked into a corrupt Mak’gora, killed the leader of the Tauren with poison (Not his fault, he was tricked) and now when the Tauren, who have been Horde longer than you have been on Azeroth are being attacked you just walk away and let them get killed?
Hmm, if you remember the actual dialogue from WotLK it is Garrosh that smack talks Vol’jin, after Vol’jin actually tries to be helpful and say he will support Garrosh to the fullness of his ability.
That would be during MoP where he is also instrumental in the war against the Mogu(Before Garrosh manages to betray -all- the Horde races bar the orcs) and then personally led an army of just Blood Elves with no Horde backup (apart from an Orc Bartender ) to a place a whole continent away to lead his forces against (At the same time) the Kirin Tor, the Zandalari, and Lei-Shen’s Mogu?
Not really nothing, is it?
Ermm, Well, I mean he could probably have made a good start by not betraying and failing the Horde as Warchief. That would probably have solved a lot of his problems, as by that point all the other racial leaders opposing him -were- those loyal to the Horde, and the forces loyal to Garrosh were instead the traitors.
Err…What?
No. That is not what happened. This is what happened. A Blood Elf created the Mana Bomb for Garrosh. It wasn’t smuggled through Dalaran at all, Dalaran has nothing to do with this. We don’t know exactly how it was transported, just that it was sent to the Horde forces in Kalimdor, so probably boat. (Though it was dropped by a Zeppelin, so possibly that) With the help of the Focussing Iris to give it some extra juice, this Mana Bomb was able to wipe Theramore off the map.
This made Jaina a sad bunny and killed Rhonin and his stupid beard. Now at this point Garrosh has not yet betrayed the Horde, so there’s no Loyalist or not about it.
So that is all pretty much at the start of MoP, so -during- MoP is when Garrosh starts going wrong, firstly he kicks off on the Trolls, then the Tauren, the Forsaken were already in a state of occupation by his Kor’kron but they start getting angry. He starts using the Blood Elves as Cannon Fodder so as not to risk his tender little Orcses, which understandably annoys -them-.
Lor’themar goes “Right, done with your nonsense, I’m joining the Alliance.”
Then One Blood Elf. Just one. Steals the Divine Bell from Darnassus using Dalaran as a base for it. The irony being that the elf in question, Fanlyr Silverthorn is Not Even a Sunreaver
Jaina, rather than trying to conduct an investigation, sets loose the kill squads including the Silver Covenant, who have no legal power of arrest. The mass torture and murder of innocent Sunreaver civilians ensues. because they were all 100% innocent. And unaware of what had actually happened.
At this point Lor’themar Theron writes to Varian Wrynn and sends a very angry response to their peace talks and says the deal is off. Varian Wrynn does a Picard style facepalm at Jaina in a “What the hell, you’ve just ruined -Everything!” sort of way. The Blood Elves go "Hells with it, the Alliance can’t be trusted, equally Garrosh can’t be trusted, We’re joining the Rebellion.
That’s what actually happened.
Like I think Thrall is any better? Thrall, Jaina, Sylvanas and Malfurion. The Game would be better without all four of them.
Ehhh, She doesn’t destroy all the Blight, there is residue, which would logically be displaced by the sheer creation of a huge physical swathe of ice, but the Blight under that ice is indeed neutralised.
It was still an absolutely ridiculous overpowered moment, given that the assumption must be “ohhh, Cold and Ice magic neutralises/displaces Blight does it?”
“So I might be wondering therefore why the first time Blight was seriously used was a Cold and Icy place, or are we saying that Jaina is actually more powerful than an entire continent’s ecosystem and climate?”
See what I mean?