Blizzard needs to reintroduce AP to save wow

[Telfurion-terokkar]

The only thing they really need to do is to re-introduce 10m mythic mode or remove myth instance lock which prevents people from real enjoying the game when they can’t have any other ability to play very end-game content they want bc they haven’t 19ppl to play with or them can’t meet each other schedule

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

This part is subjective

Yes, that’s why I started my sentence with ‘I personally’.

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

I don’t think endless grinds are healthy though;

And that’s fine. I DO like them.
We should both be able to play the way we like though?

[Furyeclipser-stormscale]

@Lùnaq-silvermoon

I mean clearing the raid and then not being forced to play is kinda nice tho, no?

You were receiving AP while clearing the raid. There was no need to go for extra.

[Vitorion-argent-dawn]

@Tah-earthen-ring

We should both be able to play the way we like though?

I think so!

But I struggle to think of a way to implement AP grind in a good way that also makes it only relevant to some players. It either affects the entire game or it feels completely irrelevant, I can’t think of a compromise.

I’d rather have solo/flexible endgame content that offers proper progression for non-raiders/non-M+ players. Brawler’s Guild 2.0, procedurally generated dungeons à la Torghast (but not depressing), islands 2.0 - whatever.

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Tah-earthen-ring

Sure. But being ABLE to play all the time should also be supported, right?

Not at the expense of making it fun. I hated 8.2 and 9.1 for these exact reasons. People were engaging with content, didn’t make it good.

@Tah-earthen-ring

I would advice against that. Alcohol is a terrible thing.

Or just doing something else with my life. That’s the point. Instead of just being stressed like in a mobile game about completing my daily list of chores.

@Gfmb-gehennas

The thing is, you were always able to do it (unless you’re WF raider). No one forced you to farm enormous amount of AP.

So was AP good during BFA when you couldn’t use traits due to a lack of AP ? Was such a good design to loot a mythic chest without being able to equip it.

@Gfmb-gehennas

AP was a good reason to log in every day. But now there is no reason to play at all, cause there is nothing to do literally.

Eversince blizzard remove them, I’m actually playing more.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

But I struggle to think of a way to implement AP grind in a good way that also makes it only relevant to some players. It either affects the entire game or it feels completely irrelevant, I can’t think of a compromise.

AP that enhances a set of gear that only works in world content?
Unlocking special abilities/procs with AP. Those abilities and procs would of course only work in world content.

That type of thing. It’s interesting for a particular type of player.
And it can also be completely skipped if you don’t care.

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

I’d rather have solo/flexible endgame content that offers proper progression for non-raiders/non-M+ players. Brawler’s Guild 2.0, procedurally generated dungeons à la Torghast (but not depressing), islands 2.0 - whatever.

In essence that’s a nice thought, but in reality: I have not liked any of that type of content - I hated Torghast, I did not enjoy the mage tower, Brawler’s guild was okay once you could overpower it with gear.

I like being and playing out in the world.
I don’t want to run dungeons; not with a group and not alone either (of course I do run them from time to time, but they’re not what I truly enjoy in this game).

[Uda-uldum]

@Tah-earthen-ring

No no no. I don’t want to force MY way of playing on others. But I do want to BE ABLE to play the way I like it. But right now, I can’t. YOUR way of playing is being forced on me.

See what the problem is there?

I see that. I have a lengthy wall of text above that gives solutions to YOUR problem with out using AP that would force your game on to me.

AP was a mistake. And they removed it.

They should have replaced AP with an overhaul of open world content, but instead they left it as it was. Which is also a mistake.

Thing is, the solution is NOT to apply the old failed solution AGAIN. That is dumb by definition.

So complaining that open world content sucks is easy. Suggesting ways to fix it, with out recurring to the old failed “quick fixes” is much harder. Get to work.

[Gfmb-gehennas]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Eversince blizzard remove them, I’m actually playing more.

May I ask, what are you doing in game? That was first question. Second: what prevented you from doing these activities in Legion or BFA?

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Uda-uldum

AP was a mistake.

@Uda-uldum

Thing is, the solution is NOT to apply the old failed solution AGAIN. That is dumb by definition.

But here’s the thing: We fundamentally disagree on this. I do NOT think AP was a mistake. I loved it - as long as it was tied to a system that was fun and engaging.
Constantly getting rewarded a little bit to improve something that makes your character more powerful and more versatile or interesting to play is GREAT imo.

It was not factually a mistake.
Some people hated it and some people loved it.
The people who hated it shouted the loudest and got their way.
Now the people who loved it have lost something and did not get anything in return that replaces it.

An unfair deal imo.

@Uda-uldum

So complaining that open world content sucks is easy. Suggesting ways to fix it, with out recurring to the old failed “quick fixes” is much harder. Get to work.

@Tah-earthen-ring

AP that enhances a set of gear that only works in world content?
Unlocking special abilities/procs with AP. Those abilities and procs would of course only work in world content.

That type of thing. It’s interesting for a particular type of player.
And it can also be completely skipped if you don’t care.

Like that?

[Annaconda-ragnaros]

“I’m not enjoying the content so I want you to force me to play it every day!”

[Uda-uldum]

@Tah-earthen-ring

Like that?

Like all this. A suggestion that makes open world content its own legitimate content, with ilvl rewards like M+ and Raiding. No fancy stuff:

@Uda-uldum

If you want to reinvigorate solo content there are other alternatives to AP.

Right now, you can literally bulldoze ALL the WQ missions and rares, get everything you want and reach exalted in 2 weeks. They “COULD” incentivize people to do it with carrot rewards like epics and AP, but that is the wrong approach.

Simply because back in the day people DID that because it was trivial to do it. What do you prefer to do: a 40 min M+ for 100 AP, or 10 WQ missions at 50 AP a pop where you pull 40 mobs, do some AoE and 1-shot everything.

That is not “fun” content. Thats just a chore. But if you do actually want outdoor content to be fun, make it harder.

As in:

Solo world quest: Make them super hard if you play solo. As in, play them perfect or you die. In Max ilvl gear that is. In lower level no chance to do most of the missions solo.

When you eventually realize you need to group up, cap the group sizes to 5. That way you cant do a 40 man raid and just trivialize things. The HP and damage of mobs will scale according to the size of that group (for balance purpose).

Even in 5 man groups, make it hard as in you are at an actual risk of wiping if you don’t play it right.

Then reward those players with gear with the same ilvl as M+ and raid. That way its a legitimate game mode. And throw in a few unique trinkets now and then.

Some quests by design will be easier (like those that you dont need to kill anything), others very hard (like some rare monsters). Thats how you judge difficulty and progress.

That is what I would do. Fix the root problem. Not the “quick fix” solution (AP) someone wrote on a napkin in 2010.

In a similar fashion, I would also make open world PvP its own legitimate content:

I would make it more like a FFA gauntlet with extra mechanics (fire on the ground, swirlies, zones that heal you, ect…).

And then fix the major problem: people grouping. When people group up, its a massive disadvantage to those that are not. Its not fun to get wiped like that. If people do group up, they go to a different phase with other people that are grouped up.

Then reward conquest/honor like the PvP missions. And some PvP gear now and then.

Thats my take. No AP required. Only FUN, FUN, FUN, which is what WoW should be. Not a chore

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Annaconda-ragnaros

“I’m not enjoying the content so I want you to force me to play it every day!”

You always need to troll, don’t you?
Nobody said that.

I like the content they have, but it doesn’t feel worthwhile to do (or at least, it stops being worthwhile very, very quickly).
THAT is the issue.

[Gfmb-gehennas]

What content are you talking about? Fyrakk assaults? Time rifts? What content is there in DF? Dragonriding?
If the game isn’t forcing you to play it, it’s a bad game.

[Vitorion-argent-dawn]

Then we have very different preferences.

I personally don’t enjoy grind for the sake of grind, but want content that offers interesting gameplay. AP grind would further ruin world content for me since it very quickly trivializes any challenge you might find. It also causes a lot of lag if it’s implemented the way it was in BFA.

[Annaconda-ragnaros]

@Tah-earthen-ring

I like the content they have, but it doesn’t feel worthwhile to do (or at least, it stops being worthwhile very, very quickly).
THAT is the issue.

The issue is that casuals who don’t play the MMO aspects of this MMO want the same rewards as high end players. You wouldn’t be happy with any of the suggestions you made with regards to a “world gear” that enhances you only in open world.
Top gear right now only appeals to you because it’s what the “cool kids” have.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Uda-uldum

Like all this.

Alright, allow me to reply to some of those ideas.

@Uda-uldum

That is not “fun” content. Thats just a chore.

To you. It’s fun for me.
You don’t get to decide what’s fun for everyone.

@Uda-uldum

Solo world quest: Make them super hard if you play solo. As in, play them perfect or you die. In Max ilvl gear that is. In lower level no chance to do most of the missions solo.

That sounds HORRIBLE.
You don’t have the mindset of a world content player and you really don’t understand what the average world content/solo player wants.

@Uda-uldum

When you eventually realize you need to group up, cap the group sizes to 5. That way you cant do a 40 man raid and just trivialize things. The HP and damage of mobs will scale according to the size of that group (for balance purpose).

Another horrible idea.
Making the world dangerous and punishing will just drive players like me away.
It’s NOT fun for me.

@Uda-uldum

That is what I would do.

Then it’s a good thing you’re not in charge.
You don’t get what world content or solo players want (at least most of them - there’s always exceptions).

@Uda-uldum

Thats my take. No AP required. Only FUN, FUN, FUN, which is what WoW should be. Not a chore

Nothing of what you suggested is fun for me. Literally nothing.

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Curvyboi-ravencrest

Removing all AP was a nice experiment and I am glad Blizzard tried it since it’s something the vocal part of the playerbase asked for, but I hope they realize just how detrimental it’s been to the game.

More and more people are slowly starting to realize this after seeing just how empty their guilds & friends list are. People aren’t logging on because there is no good & rewarding casual/solo-content. Dragonflight feels more like playing schedule-simulator than playing a game.

All 3rd party data shows participation as being super low. Even content creators like who spin everything in a positive light have acknowledged the low participation. It’s not a coincidence. AP & Titanforging were amazing for casual players as it offered ways to progress our characters & get gear that didn’t involve raiding or mythic+

This expansion, just like Warlords of Draenor, has been exclusively made for raidloggers and those who spam Mythic+. It has left casual players in the dirt with virtually no content to play. Dragonflight has a very good patch cadence and yet somehow it genuinely feels like we’re in the middle of a content-drought.

I doubt we’ll see it re-introduced for DF, but I hope it’s not too late for blizzard to correct the course in regards to next expansion. I don’t see wow surviving another xpac made for raidloggers.

its quite simple - blizzard made DF as expansioon catered only and solely to hardcore players. they cannot be surpirsed that all casuals left the game because of it.

face it - adding grind for mount number 87987389789 and transmog number 9890890890 doesnt keep people playing - people play mmorpgs to feel stronger and supperior each time they play . without this ? game just doesnt work.

yes people who mythic raid and do m+ are happy . huge surprise there
but 99 % of players has nothing to do in game after first 2-3 week.s

im on break again 2nd time this expansion for past 3 weeks and i hinetly cba to play till next season . yes i could do m+ each week and buump average itlv on 13 alts to 440-445 - but thats the point - next patch will reset it anyway and power gain between 435-440 is negligible. so im not gonna spend hundreds of hours to do 10 % more dps or to have 10 % more surivability on tanks / dps if i dont plan to push above +17 anyway.

blizzard failed with DF hard.

[Annaconda-ragnaros]

@Lilíith-draenor

yes i could do m+ each week and buump average itlv on 13 alts to 440-445 - but thats the point - next patch will reset it anyway and power gain between 435-440 is negligible. so im not gonna spend hundreds of hours to do 10 % more dps or to have 10 % more surivability on tanks / dps if i dont plan to push above +17 anyway.

But grinding open world for the same rewards which become just as obsolete would be appealing to you?

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Gfmb-gehennas

What content are you talking about? Fyrakk assaults? Time rifts? What content is there in DF? Dragonriding?
If the game isn’t forcing you to play it, it’s a bad game.

if the game doesnt give you any reson to log in to play outside of spaming high end instance ? yes the game fails hard. very hard. and you can see it with how dead wow is.

because realisticaly how many m+ can you do before you jsut feel that "you are done ’ ?

100 ? 200 ? 500 ? its not interesting content outsdie of first 1 max 2 months when people hit the glass celling / soft caps and either spend literaly hundreds of hours for minimal power gains minimal .io score upgrade or … just quit game.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

Then we have very different preferences.

I suppose we do. And that’s fine.
Blizzard should however not only cater to one type of thing.

@Vitorion-argent-dawn

I personally don’t enjoy grind for the sake of grind, but want content that offers interesting gameplay. AP grind would further ruin world content for me since it very quickly trivializes any challenge you might find.

Then there’s where we differ. I’m not playing for a challenge.
I play to relax and have fun. Tense balls-to-the-wall action and frantic rotations is not that for me.

@Annaconda-ragnaros

The issue is that casuals who don’t play the MMO aspects of this MMO want the same rewards as high end players.

Not true. See my little idea for instance:

@Tah-earthen-ring

AP that enhances a set of gear that only works in world content?
Unlocking special abilities/procs with AP. Those abilities and procs would of course only work in world content.

That type of thing. It’s interesting for a particular type of player.
And it can also be completely skipped if you don’t care.

Does that sound like ‘the same rewards as high end players’ ?

@Annaconda-ragnaros

You wouldn’t be happy with any of the suggestions you made with regards to a “world gear” that enhances you only in open world.

I would. Don’t tell me what I would or would not like or do.
Speak for yourself.

@Annaconda-ragnaros

Top gear right now only appeals to you because it’s what the “cool kids” have.

LOL. I don’t regard high end players as ‘cool kids’, not even close to that.
No, I don’t care in the slightest. I just want character progression; interesting progression that feels worthwhile. What shape that takes is up for discussion.