Blizzard, we need to talk about SEF

Anyone who’s been playing Windwalker for more than half a week is probably familiar with the fact that Storm, Earth, and Fire frequently suffers from bugs. This is generally a result of pet AI being troublesome for all classes, and SEF being rather unique in its functionality. The amount of bugs and impact thereof varies per season, and during Dragonflight it was highly mitigated by the alternative option of Serenity.

I don’t speak lightly when I say that this is probably the worst season for SEF functionality since early Legion.

So, what’s going on?
Let’s start with the elephant in the room:

The Conduit bug

Despite having become fairly widespread under that label in the last two days or so, this is actually a bug with SEF and has fairly little do with Celestial Conduit itself.

To put it simply, the SEF spirits determine how much damage they are supposed to deal to their targets by looking at how much damage the player is dealing. In the case of a split-damage ability like Conduit, if there are 3 targets within range, the spell is adjusted to deal 1/3rd of its damage to all targets. This is of course adjusted dynamically if more or fewer targets come within range during the channel. The spell that is cast by the SEF spirits does not calculate this damage split itself, but blindly copies whatever the calculation spits out for the player’s spell. As a result, if you cast SEF, send them to your targets by fixating them, and then cast Conduit with 1 target or fewer within range, the spell will not calculate a split and will send 100% of the damage to the SEF spirits. Their spell still hits all targets, but now for full damage.

Adding numbers to the example: let’s say you usually deal 3 million damage with Conduit. On 15 targets, you’d normally have a 30% damage buff (6% for each target struck, up to 5), and the damage will be split between them. Adding the SEF modifier of 20% (3 spirits, including the player, each dealing 40% damage), each target takes 312k damage.

If you cast Conduit while out of range with SEF in the pack, you do not receive the 30% damage buff since you’re not hitting any targets, but the damage from the spirits will be uncapped and unsplit, albeit still reduced to 40% each. Each target now takes 2.4 million damage, for a total amount of 36 million damage in one cast.

This is how some Windwalkers have been doing burst aoe comparable to or exceeding the (somehow still) blatantly overpowered Frost Death Knight and Retribution Paladin in Mythic+. I myself managed to peak at 18 million DPS and end the pull at 9 million.
In raid, Windwalker parses for Broodtwister Ovi’nax are probably not going to recover from the damage this bug has done to them.

As I mentioned, this is not a Conduit bug, but an SEF bug. Similar behavior has been observed in other spells like Spinning Crane Kick and Fists of Fury, but the effect is greatly diminished because these spells aren’t full split in the first place. Instead, it simply makes the replicated spell not affected by the normal square root scaling of target counts beyond 5, if you yourself are hitting 5 or fewer targets.
Veteran Windwalkers will remember a certain “trick” we were able to do by casting Whirling Dragon Punch in the last few miliseconds of SEF’s duration, causing the still-active spirits to cast a full damage spell for triple the base damage. This likely had the same cause as whatever it is now, demonstrating the patchwork nature of SEF’s code and the fact that this bug has been in the game for at least several years. In order to properly address this issue, SEF needs to be able to determine their own target count and calculate damage scaling accordingly.

Before we move on, I’d like to quickly mention that this bug has highlighted a pretty serious issue: despite its massive impact, it does not make Conduit of the Celestials clearly superior in Mythic+. Not relative to Shado-Pan, and especially not relative to the top performing classes. It is a clear demonstration that CotC is terribly undertuned for multi-target situations and could and should be adjusted to square root scaling past 5 targets like our other spells with no risk of breaking the balance.

To Buff or not to Buff

The second major issue with SEF is that it is unaffected by a large variety of auras. In particular, global school modifiers and global damage amplifiers from the player simply have no effect on the spirits. That means effects like “Nature damage increased by 5%” won’t increase the damage of your SEF spirits’ Crackling Jade Lightning or Jade Ignition, for example. It also means that effects like Acclamation or Fatal Touch do not increase any damage dealt by your SEF spirits, essentially reducing the value of these effects by 66% during SEF’s duration.

This should be bad enough, but it gets significantly worse. There appears to be a large interval for pets to “inherit” their casters stats whenever they change. Dubbed the “Heartbeat” of the pet, this is causing huge delays to the effect on the spirits if you activate on-use stat buff trinkets such as Treacherous Transmitter or Skardyn’s Grace, or combat potions, while SEF is already active. We’ve seen delays of more than 5 seconds in logs, which means the buff would be applied to the spirits well after your biggest burst of damage has passed. Common practice has been to synchronize the use of these effects with the first damaging spell after casting SEF, in order to fully optimize the increased value. This pet behavior is highly counter-intuitive and is causing large amounts of value to be wasted for players that are, to the best of their knowledge, playing optimally. I don’t know exactly how long this behavior has been in the game, but it has almost certainly been many years.

These particular issues, other than being detrimental to Windwalkers’ performance directly, also make it extremely difficult to accurately model Windwalkers in simulations.

Job’s Done

One particular annoyance that became abundantly obvious during Shadowlands is the inability for SEF spirits to “unfixate”. That is, if you fixate your spirits to a target and that target is killed, the spirits essentially stay stuck to it until manually fixated again. Single target spells will simply not be replicated, and they will continuously attempt to run back to the corpse of their target. Intuitively, one would expect them to simply return to unfixated behavior whenever their fixated target dies. This bug has been present in the game for at least three expansions, and likely has been around since the Windwalker rework in Legion.

and that’s not all

There are still more miscellaneous bugs that aren’t easily categorized:

  • SEF spirits will target units that aren’t in combat with the caster, as long as those units are in combat with something. This can lead to unintentional pulling when npcs are in combat with each other for story-related reasons. (A recent example is the battle between Arathi npcs and Order of the Night npcs in the Dawnbreaker dungeon.)
  • For whatever reason, Flurry of Xuen deals 250% of the normal damage if it procs during SEF.
  • Storm, Earth, and Fire: Fixate is considered a “cast” and will interrupt Spinning Crane Kick and Celestial Conduit. Since this doesn’t happen with Fists of Fury, I’m calling it a bug, albeit arguably a bug with SCK and CC.
  • Damage dealt by SEF spirits doesn’t contribute to Shado-Pan’s Flurry Charges.
  • SEF spirits’ Tiger Palm is not affected by Tiger’s Ferocity, Windwalker’s 4-set bonus.
  • SEF spirits don’t seem to aim their Fists of Fury in any capacity, often missing several targets in any given pull.

So, now what?

This is the part where I make suggestions to fix the issue, where I usually try my best to find solutions that require the least possible developer time to implement. In this case, however, I need to be direct: I have no faith that you will be able to completely eradicate all bugs from Storm, Earth, and Fire’s code. Frankly, I don’t even trust that you’ll be able to fix it to a more-or-less acceptable degree. Even though we haven’t always been aware of everything I’ve described, they are all problems that have been present for many, many years. This means that either there have been grossly insufficient efforts to address them, or the code has spaghettified so much over the years that no one even knows how to address them.

I do acknowledge, like I did in my Thematic rework suggestion thread, that SEF is obviously a nostalgic callback to Warcraft 3’s ultimate spell of the same name, used by Chen Stormstout. Even for players that have not experienced WC3, Storm, Earth, and Fire has been an iconic Windwalker spell since the specialization’s very conception. As such, it is to be expected that you will be very hesitant to completely remove it. I fully sympathize with that, but to repeat myself, you are not going to succeed in making this spell functional to an acceptable degree without a significant amount of developing work. It would be much more efficient and much better for the long term if you completely cut out the tumor and start from scratch.

Keeping the above in mind, there are some things I will be trying to accomplish with the rework suggestions:

  • It should be a damage buff approximately equal to 20% or more, with an uptime of 15-20% of a given encounter.
  • It should use a flexible, charge-based cooldown system.
  • It should fit within Windwalker’s established themes and the expected possibilities of Chi and/or martial arts.
  • It should not rely on pets or totems in any way.
  • Optionally:
    • It should assist with applying Mark of the Crane in multitarget situations.
    • It should offer a way to temporarily deal damage at a great distance.

Serenity
2 charges, 90 sec recharge
Your damage is increased by 20% for 15 sec, and your Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, and Rising Sun kick apply Mark of the Crane to one additional target within 20 yards.

Resonant Fists
4 charges, 45 sec recharge
Brand your target with Chi, echoing all damage you deal at 10% effectiveness to this target for 15 sec. Spinning Crane Kick and Fists of Fury cause all targets affected by Resonant Fists to radiate damage equal to 15% of the spell’s damage to 8 nearby targets.

Flickering Fists
2 charges, 90 sec recharge
Your damage is increased by 20% for 15 sec. Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, and Rising Sun Kick each strike an additional 2 targets at 20% effectiveness.

(^ This one might require a rework to Shadowboxing Treads)

Temples of the Celestials
3 charges, 1m recharge
Your damage is increased by 10% for 15 sec, and your abilities reflect the teachings of the August Celestials.
Spinning Crane Kick: your next Blackout Kick strikes 4 additional targets.
Fists of Fury: your next Spinning Crane Kick strikes 2 more times.
Rising Sun Kick: your next Strike of the Windlord or Whirling Dragon Punch penetrates Armor.
Flying Serpent Kick: your next Rising Sun Kick deals 150% damage and costs no Chi.

Chi Overload
2 charges, 90 sec cd
Your damage is increased by 20% for 15 sec, and targets affected by your Mark of the Crane suffer (400% of Attack power) Nature damage over 8 sec. (Affects active and newly applied Marks.)

30 Likes

Thanks Seiryoku for saying out loud what every WW think. This ability has always been an absolute mess since the legion rework. This is by far my least favourite part of the windwalker kit.

From a thematic point of view, I would like to point out that Chen Stormstout is a brewmaster monk ! In warcraft 3 he was holding a massive keg, in heroes of the storm he uses breath of fire and keg based abilities. When you think about it, windwalker does not really need this for lore reasons, Serenity looks better and more iconic and is already in the game… Hell even the in-game icon of Serenity fits WW better.

Additionally from the great rework suggestions, if you absolutely must keep SEF in some form (sunk cost fallacy I guess), keep it as a intentionally weaker talent option, or a glyph for flavour only, that way the people who enjoy this ability can keep doing non competitive content such as world quests, leveling and delves with it.

For example to go along with a Serenity version that gives a flat damage buff, you could add a Glyph of SEF that change the visual and make the clones pop and “attack ennemies” (they actually wouldn’t do damage and would be doing random animations, kinda cool as a callback to SEF clones casting FoF with 0 targets in front of them)

To give direct feedback regarding the rework suggestions :

  • Serenity : Simple and effective, I love it
  • Resonant Fists: A little reminiscent of the MoP/WoD SEF, great concept. Can you stack the debuff 4 times on the same target, or spread it to 4 target instantly ?
  • Flickering Fists : Very close to the Serenity suggestion, especially if the additional hits apply MotC
  • Temple of the Celestials : Very reminiscent of Mistweaver abilities, like the tea. I like it. FSK for damage used to be a thing in the old days as well.
  • Chi Overload : This is really amazing with RJW.

I would also want to give another suggestion that requires very little testing as these are already in the game: Bake Ordered Element with a 20% damage buff on a 2 charges skill with Serenity visuals and replace the Ordered Element with Drinking Horn Cover. Even if you did it as an alternative node to SEF, a change like this would be so welcome !

I would take in an heartbeat any of these spells over the current version of SEF.
Please rework it Blizzard.

9 Likes

All excellent points. Besides the buggy nature of SEF I frankly just want our subpar proc-based AoE addressed.

7 Likes

Great article! Thanks a lot for all the work you put into it. SEF has so many flaws and it was never fun to track two NPCs often running around like headless chickens and making sure they do what we want (while we do our rotation and play the fight). Especially with the tools that are given to us, it often makes one feel powerless. It is frustrating if you spot one clone picking a target outside of a bigger pull. Your only option to not lose significant dps is to fixate them then, which then however causes other problems like you mentioned and on top that they also lose the ability to spread MotC. Even if everything else would work fine, the bad pet ai and therefore the micromanagement part would probably never go away. So again, thank you for addressing all these issues!

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I totaly agree, at this point just remove Storm Earth and Fire and make something new and special… we need some love blizzard

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Also our Aoe is lackluster idd :frowning:

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These things have more impact on me, than I thought first, after reading this post and other “monk bug” posts.

I’m playing retail since MoP and I was playing prot warrior first for pve content. I always liked the idea of monks being in the game, but I had my main already.
Then in late WoD/early Legion I started to play more frost mage, but I still did my bigger Legion M+ keystones on my tank warrior.
In BfA, I completely switched to my mage and enjoyed doing M+ with it, up until Dragonflight season 2. (I was still having my warrior and did some raiding on a retri pala).

In DF s2 I felt that I needed some change, I wanted a new main, mostly for dps (I was bored with tanking and I didn’t like the mage changes from SL either - RoP gone, although I never used it personally, and Shifting power remaining from SL). I was hesitating between pala/warrior and I was playing with the idea of ww monk.

In my eyes, since the introducing of M+, ww monks were always kings for this content and I also liked the class fantasy since MoP. Not too flashy, being unique by using bare hands and kicks for dps. So I felt that it’s time start one.

I didn’t regret my choice for one second. I also had a tank friend, so from DF s2 I had a blast doing M+. I even did the portals in s3. So I was on the track, I felt that I found the class/spec that fits me most and since then I never felt the urge to try something else.

Now, after hitting 2k again (this is always our goal in seasons with my tank friend) and doing some keys and reading this post, everything adds up. Experience, reality and the facts behind them.

I never “feel” the “dps” in the past weeks. In early TWW s1, in low gear, I acknowledged the impact of low secondary stats on different classes/specs and other than arcane mages, fury warriors and some mm hunters, I didn’t have issues keeping up with other classes.

I also watched warcraft logs, how it goes for raiding, and I was satisfied with ww’s upper middle position. However, over time our position on the charts is going lower and lower. I can’t mention a class/spec that I can outdps with my average performance anymore.

I even created an excel sheet for my optimal secondary stat distribution, where st dps requires 10% crit, 60% haste, 20% mastery, 10% versa, according to simulations/bloodmallet. I plan my stat distribution to match these percentages.

Then reality hits me. A 5-10 ilvl lower retri pala or dh or whatever class joins the party and deletes mobs with ease, while I struggle with dps and don’t understand what happens.

Now I understand it more, thanks to these posts on the forums.

Now I have a class that doesn’t have meaningful cd-s for the party and neither does “good” dps, so I feel useless. Doesn’t matter now, because I reached my goals, but it will matter in the future, because there are at least 3 more seasons in the expansion, and I don’t have the time/motivation to switch main again. I like this class, the fantasy, but compared to DF, now I feel lackluster and useless, compared to others.

I know, it’s TLDR, but I wanted to vent and wanted Blizz to see my struggle, thanks to their lazy class development.

3 Likes

I would urge to use caution when attributing personal experiences to the issues that I’ve laid out. They are systemic, and have (to varying degrees) been in the game for a very long time, since before you first starting playing a Monk. Their impact is mostly felt in statistical analysis between specs or when minmaxing to a fairly high degree. I don’t mean to marginalize the impact of the bugs, but you seem to be under the impression that they are greatly affecting your performance in the last few weeks, which is unlikely to be the case.

While it’s good that you’re trying to improve your character where you can, I would suggest getting familiar with raidbots and sim your character with Top Gear frequently, rather than trying to find some kind of ideal stat distribution and just aiming for that. Your character is constantly improving, but those improvements are incremental and will slow down over time. It’s better to play the stats that are best for you now, not what may be best in the future.

If I’m reading between the lines correctly, you are generally playing around mythic+ 8-10 and heroic raiding. At that level, the systemic issues of the spec are not particularly impactful and you can easily compensate for them with some extra item level or player skill. Try not to feel like the spec can’t do what you want to do with it, because it can :slight_smile:

1 Like

Worst part for me is the fixate, target dies, clones stop working part. Also there are just too many cases where we are fighting bosses with massive hitboxes and the clones just spread out to the way too far and end up cleaving absolutely nothing. I would be happy if they just made the whole clones part serve only as a way to spread mark of the crane, while my character deals full dmg, and increase the range of sck, fof and shadowboxing threads for the duration of the cooldown.

Edit: I know if not a topic for Conduit of the Celestials feedback but seeing other specs getting mayor changes to their hero talents give me hope that we can have the devs take a second look at the shortcomings of that three. Knowing that hero talents are here to stay for the long run and thinking about the current conduit gameplay makes me wanna play something else. I know its not easy to make something that works for both WW and MW but it would not be the 1st tree that differs a lot based on spec.

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I see your points and because of my “laziness”, I always played Serenity in DF. It was simple to use, simple dps increase, no need to coordinate clones etc. I was fine with it on my level of content.

Now I’m forced to use SEF and forced to bear it’s issues. It makes my character weaker (according to your post) in comparison to DF version, where I liked ww more. The haste implementation via talent and removing extra buttons for chi generation is a positive change, but I simply don’t like how SEF works. On top of that, it’s not working as intended.

The Darting Hurricane nerf also has an impact. Maybe I’m noob, but I rarely have situations where I still have to use Tiger Palm twice, which is against the mastery rule. (Their mastery is also one of the reasons I like the ww style gameplay. No button spam, variety of actions.)

So I can feel the issues, even on lower levels. Imo, a dps should perform well enough either on lower levels or higher levels of gameplay to have a minimal community recognition and impact on my overall performance.

I know, there will be always BiS comps for each level of gameplay, but on this heroic/semi heroic level, where I play, there shouldn’t be such differences between performances.

I also find the Conduit exploit with SEF intriguing, because I never played Conduit, I simply like Shado Pan better, because of my above mentioned lazyness (I prefer simple playstyle with less buttons to press). But this “trick” is a game mechanism that it not intended to exist in the first place.

1 Like

Thank you for this post. It adresses real painpoints that Blizzard needs to stop ignoring.

2 Likes

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