Build the Ripcord

[Amonet-stormrage]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Not in the context in which you provided them.

I did not provide context, only pointed out you said those things. Granted “statement” might not be the best term to use but i can also argue that you state that you opionin is… soo agree to disagree.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

You disagree. Doesn’t mean I am wrong (doesn’t mean I’m right either, sure).

Actually you are wrong, an opinion can be wrong you know, further on this down the line.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

No I’m not.
The only thing that I’m not doing is looking at this from an obsessive player’s point of view. Because I really believe that that type of gameplay is unhealthy, both for the player as well as for the game itself.

Here we go with this “obsessive” thing again, YOUR opinion is that we are obsessive, that opinion again is wrong, caring about something is not an obsession, in the same way you are describing us i can say that you are an apathetic player who does not care about the game at all, am i correct in saying that , no i dont think i am you just care about different stuff. So yes you are looking at it from one perspective, that of a solo player (or from that of someone who does not really contribute to the party/raid and if you start arguing about this you should really look into what contribution is)

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Yes I do. And I’m not saying that Blizzard can’t make a mistake with balancing this; it’s totally possible that will happen. But they will fix that. And if you then feel slighted, you only have yourself and your obsessive behaviour to blame.

Blizzard cannot balance these things. The way to fix them is to untie them from the choice of covenants in term macking them actually meaningfull for the majority not just the RP-ers. If i pick what i like it will hinder my performance in the next 2 years , which again i do care about and its not obsessive (go back to p2 of the reply).

@Tahra-earthen-ring

No one is looking at this objectively, so expecting me to do that is silly and unfair.

Actually we are, i will give you this alot of people do say things like “this will effect everyone”, which really isnt true, solo player and RP-ers will not care about the power i would imagine, however we do know how to read in context and know that when someone says “everyone” they mean everyone that gives a F about performance.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

You are wrong.

You have yet to prove me wrong, you have demonstarated 0 inderstanding about how end game works. Proof of which is your argument (or opinion) that macking raid bosses gear and dps checks will solve the issue with minmaxing, which in reallity will only insentivise people to do it even more.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

EDIT: Look, we’re never going to agree.
You think that kind of ‘gameplay’ is fine. I don’t.

Why do you care what type of gameplay is fine or not, just accept it and stop calling it obsessive, i can find flaws about you style but i wouldnt call you wrong or anything for doing it, its your choice what you do, why do you care what we do.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Grigory-burning-legion

Told you one cannot have a normal discussion with this showpiece of a troll. When someone else states facts, it’s their opinion, but when THE TROLL states their opinion, it’s facts… And when the troll is proven wrong (which is very often, a child’s play really to find just one logical fail) it’s time for ninja editing posts.

Wow… the level you stoop down to… Pure slander and personal attacks.
More reports inc.

@Grigory-burning-legion

Really, just this is enough.

Already refuted that, so no; it’s not enough.
Behave yourself or you have a ban incoming soon.

@Grigory-burning-legion

And speaking about evaluations, I’ve come across a 3rd possible answer as to why it’s such an enemy of logical reasoning, others being a troll and/or a PR agent. It starts with “A” and belongs among mental issues some people suffer.

Yeahhhh definitely ban incoming. You’re horrible.

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

No. Not around them.

They are. Because it would not make sense otherwise.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Not with covenant powers anyway. Conduits and such; I could agree with.

They are a damn package. You just can’t say they are different things since they are built together.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

So wouldn’t it be very foolish if they then build ‘around’ such a skill? Yes it would. It’s an extra. You can utilize it; or not.

So it’s completely degenerated design. I mean, what’s the point of building stuff and a spell if in the end…they’re useless. It’s pure BS.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

‘A thing’, yeah. ‘Needed’, nope.

If you were actually raiding in HC, you would know it

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Raiding: only mythic.

Heroic is sometimes hard, like the last 2 to 3 bosses. Except Nyalotah, it’s safe to say that last and second to last are really harsh. Can you just stop saying opinions about stuff that you have no clue about ?

@Tahra-earthen-ring

+10 only at the very start; this stuff becomes easier.

Well, It’s still hard, 8.3 just messed up scaling because of damn corruptions.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

You’re countering yourself now? I’m not sure what you’re saying here.

What I’m trying to say is that :
-If covenants are being locked, it hinders the 10%, but has no effect on the 90% that don’t engage in content
-If covenants are swapable, then nobody is being hindered.

Das ist what I meant and das ist mein opinion

@Tahra-earthen-ring

That’s your choice.
And that choice has consequences.
That’s the whole idea.

Yeah, it’s like choosing if I wanna do raid or high M+, instead of being able of doing both. Such interesting choice !

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Give them a chance.

Nein, they proved so many times in the last couple of expansions they can’t. They certainly could if they were less obesessed with those layers of systems.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

It’s a funny extra bonus and that’s fine with me.

It’s not extra if it’s meant to be played with.

@Tahra-earthen-ring

Nope. Not true. Trickle down effect.
Those ‘obsessed’ will set the tone and that behaviour will trickle down to the masses where even the most menial of group content will get insane requirements set by those who ‘think’ they know ‘how things should be done’. But what’s really happening is that obsessive behaviour is being copied. Bad for everyone involved except those ‘obsessed’.

What’s that obsession for those such poorly designed systems that just can’t work and pushes Blizzard into wasting time tuning, reworking, instead of working on actual and enjoyable content ?

I mean, why is it ok to punish some people, when the obvious thing to do is to actually punish nobody ?

[Ãnna-silvermoon]

@Grigory-burning-legion

And speaking about evaluations, I’ve come across a 3rd possible answer as to why it’s such an enemy of logical reasoning, others being a troll and/or a PR agent. It starts with “A” and belongs among mental issues some people suffer.

There is no need for this. You can debate all you like but there is no need to resort to insults.

Why just say “A”? Just spit it out if you stand by what you say.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Amonet-stormrage

Actually you are wrong, an opinion can be wrong you know

Not in this case.

@Amonet-stormrage

caring about something is not an obsession

I’m not saying that. And I even stated that in my former post.
You keep drawing wrong conclusions from things I say.

What I call obsessive behaviour:

• Worrying about tiny fluxuations in your ingame performance (unless that performance warrants it, as it does in the very high end content such as Mythic raiding).
• Constantly changing your character to fit any given situation. I’m not talking about a respec here to run some pvp or such a thing. I’m talking about changing stuff for trash pulls, then a boss, then trash pulls again, then change yet again for another boss, etc (again, unless the content requires it, which again it only does so at the very high end).
• Thinking you NEED something when you very clearly, proven by numbers, don’t.

@Amonet-stormrage

So yes you are looking at it from one perspective, that of a solo player (or from that of someone who does not really contribute to the party/raid and if you start arguing about this you should really look into what contribution is)

That’s 2 totally different things. No I’m not looking at this from a solo perspective. I already explained that and yet you keep repeating it.
The other argument would really depend on what you call contribution and what I call contribution. My guess is that those definitions, when it comes to WoW, are vastly different. Again; we have a different gaming philosophy.

@Amonet-stormrage

Blizzard cannot balance these things.

Is what you think. It’s not a fact until proven.
It’s speculation at this point in time (again; I’m not saying it cannot become true).

@Amonet-stormrage

The way to fix them is to untie them from the choice of covenants in term macking them actually meaningfull for the majority not just the RP-ers.

Which they already stated they will NOT do.
So why are you still beating that dead horse?

@Amonet-stormrage

Actually we are

No. You really, really are not.
You want to play a certain way. This system will not let you.
That’s NOT objective.

@Amonet-stormrage

You have yet to prove me wrong, you have demonstarated 0 inderstanding about how end game works. Proof of which is your argument (or opinion) that macking raid bosses gear and dps checks will solve the issue with minmaxing, which in reallity will only insentivise people to do it even more.

If you know so well, why aren’t you designing games?
I, in fact, am (not a videogame, but a boardgame).

@Amonet-stormrage

Why do you care what type of gameplay is fine or not, just accept it and stop calling it obsessive

Because that type of gameplay HURTS OTHER PLAYERS AND THUS THE GAME ITSELF. I already stated that earlier.

@Amonet-stormrage

i can find flaws about you style but i wouldnt call you wrong or anything for doing it, its your choice what you do, why do you care what we do.

Because what I do, doesn’t influence what you do in the slightest.
The reverse cannot be said. That. Is. Why.

Now… Can we agree to disagree?

[Grigory-burning-legion]

Wasn’t sure if it’s OK for this forum to say that “someone is not right in the head and symptoms point at possible autism” after looking what happens when people’s preferences for other people are discussed. Or, you know, just being a troll. And it’s not actually an insult if it’s true, just statement of fact, and this would be far far FAR more understandable than trolling on purpose or doing the PR work of certain corporation for FREE while ALSO being screwed by said corporation. Soviet/Russian military intelligence had a term I find very accurate for such unpaid AND expendable VOLUNTARY agents, and it’s definitely no-no on this forum. Translates to “something”-eaters.

So let’s just say I’d be more likely to understand that someone is not in their right mind - happens, not their fault, neither anything they have done - rather than that they can keep spewing BS of their own free will - DEFINITELY their fault and they keep doing it on purpose, so they get the consequences of their actions.

[Ãnna-silvermoon]

I’m Autistic and I am perfectly fine in the head thankyou.

It’s certainly not something that gives people a free pass at insulting us

[Grigory-burning-legion]

You don’t keep showing up in threads about Covenants talking BS how Covs are the very best thing since sliced bread even when repeatedly called out on it being BS. Tahra does. And I’m not very familiar with “diplomatic” terms in English on these issues so please excuse me for using a little shorthand. So we’re back to either troll and/or PR sucker, eh?

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

They are. Because it would not make sense otherwise.

Then ‘it doesn’t make sense’, I guess.
To you anyway. Makes perfect sense to me.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

They are a damn package. You just can’t say they are different things since they are built together.

If you want that; yes. Not perse. They can be totally seperate (which my build will be).

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

So it’s completely degenerated design. I mean, what’s the point of building stuff and a spell if in the end…they’re useless. It’s pure BS.

They’re NOT useless. You CALL them useless, but they’re perfectly fine to use.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

If you were actually raiding in HC, you would know it

I know it. Herd behaviour. Trickle down effect. Forcing it onto everyone who wants to participate. I know how it works; and it’s degenerate behaviour imo.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Can you just stop saying opinions about stuff that you have no clue about ?

No.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Yeah, it’s like choosing if I wanna do raid or high M+, instead of being able of doing both. Such interesting choice !

You can do both. Just one might be a little bit more challenging. Oh noes, the end of the world.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

Nein, they proved so many times in the last couple of expansions they can’t. They certainly could if they were less obesessed with those layers of systems.

Well, you don’t really have a choice in this. They ARE going to try.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

It’s not extra if it’s meant to be played with.

Of course it is, what kind of silly argument is that.
Not every skill you get belongs in a rotation for all content.

@Shihiroki-kirin-tor

I mean, why is it ok to punish some people, when the obvious thing to do is to actually punish nobody ?

That’s not the case. The choice is; punish some people or punish most people.
Easy choice imo (and yes, I’m perfectly aware that you don’t see that as punishing behaviour, because you approve of it; doesn’t change the fact that it affects many people).

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

@Tahra-earthen-ring

punish most people.

Not sure how you would be punished if someone else switches.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Heavenseeker-silvermoon

Not sure how you would be punished if someone else switches.

I’ve explained this ad nauseum. Don’t people actually READ?!
Search for ‘trickle down’.

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

Yes, well, the “trickle down” will happen no matter what. A lot more people swallowing the bitter medicine when WoWHead told them the optimal Covenant they do not really like and cannot easily switch out of.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Heavenseeker-silvermoon

Yes, well, the “trickle down” will happen no matter what.

Not if it’s just not possible.

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

… How is it not possible? People will pick the optimal Covenant the moment they’re presented with the Covenant choice.

[Telestrian-argent-dawn]

@Grigory-burning-legion

Wasn’t sure if it’s OK for this forum to say that “someone is not right in the head and symptoms point at possible autism” after looking what happens when people’s preferences for other people are discussed. Or, you know, just being a troll. And it’s not actually an insult if it’s true, just statement of fact, and this would be far far FAR more understandable than trolling on purpose or doing the PR work of certain corporation for FREE while ALSO being screwed by said corporation. Russian military intelligence had a term I find very accurate for such unpaid AND expendable VOLUNTARY agents, and it’s definitely no-no on this forum. Translates to “something”-eaters.

So let’s just say I’d be more likely to understand that someone is not in their right mind - happens, not their fault, neither anything they have done - rather than that they can keep spewing BS of their own free will - DEFINITELY their fault and they keep doing it on purpose, so they get the consequences of their actions.

“If I think somebody might be autistic based upon a single snapshot of forum behaviour disagreeing with me, this means it is legit for me to use it as a term intended to subtlely undermine their points by suggesting they’re wrong the in the head”

Yikes.

I don’t even disagree with you over covenants but your argument form is completely tone deaf and trying to suggest people might be mentally out of sorts based on their opposition to your position is a really questionable stance.

Speaking of Russians, didn’t their propaganda department under Stalin use similar tactics to try and delegitimise dissent? Ie you’re engaging in wrong think, therefore you’re mentally unwell because nobody sane opposes this, so off to the institution you go. That or they accused them of belonging to some other wrong group they could dismiss them over rather than addressing their points.
Just a thought.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Heavenseeker-silvermoon

… How is it not possible? People will pick the optimal Covenant the moment they’re presented with the Covenant choice.

But that can’t be enforced if you can’t switch ‘just like that’.

[Ãnna-silvermoon]

@Grigory-burning-legion

So we’re back to either troll and/or PR sucker, eh?

How about “I just don’t agree with what they said”

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

Yes, it will be enforced the same moment a new player barely enters the endgame.

[Tahra-earthen-ring (Tahra)]

@Heavenseeker-silvermoon

Yes, it will be enforced the same moment a new player barely enters the endgame.

And that’s okay with you? Because it really isn’t with me.
It’s abhorrent behaviour.

[Heavenseeker-silvermoon]

It is not right with me either. But it is what will happen.