Shamelessly yoinked from the US forums that brought it up
But for real, there is some interesting bits that could be discussed around here too:
Some dungeon information:
Bwonsamdi has kept a secret place in the Shadowlands he refers to as De Other Side. When the dead started funneling into the Maw, Bwonsamdi hid several in his little domain, keeping his troll followers safe. But this broke an old deal with Muehzala and now the ancient loa has come to harvest those souls and destroy their caretaker. Bwonsamdi will need help collecting on some of his other dealings if he is to survive this onslaught and protect the souls within.
Some implications derived from this new information:
Bwonsamdi seems to have been a Priest of Muehâzala originally or at least depended on him enough to make a deal that granted him certain perks that are now threatened.
Muehâzala is being unveiled as âthe bossâ he mentioned BFA.
In all, it does seem as if Bwonsamdi was in some way, ranking second beneath Muehâzala, who in turn is being shown as the actual Loa of Death.
The text also points at the Other Side being entirely Bwonsamdis playground, but still tied to Muehâzala in a way that makes it feel as if the latter gave said concession because of an old deal Bwon made with him.
Yeah itâs weird considering Shadows of the Horde (chapter 29). And thatâs why I donât like it.
It is what it is, Blizzard will keep on changing things.
Edit: poor Farraki fans. But at least he doesnât die.
I like that idea of Bwonsamdi having his own realm or (pocket universe) in the shadowlands where heâs sending his followers to protect them. We know Bwonsamdi is a pain in the asss (stupid filter wonât even let me type the word a s s ??) but heâs a lovable one and it shows he wants to protect the balance of life/death.
Bwonsamdi is probably my favorite character to come out of BFA and iâm glad weâre getting more into his back story and helping him out against Muehâzala. I just hope he doesnât get killed off so we can learn more.
I have hard time understanding how is that supposed to work. Zandalari the ancient lorekeepers and didnât mention Muehâzala in any way or form. Youâd think theyâd put him on the pantheon instead of grim reaper figure.
Bwonsamdi was meant to collect troll souls through millenias, and recent text makes it look like it was created recently?
I also donât really like this retcon of him predating trolls. It was possible that he couldâve been some proto troll but again with this information they really need to properly expand upon it on when it happened and during which circumstances which I am pretty sure they wonât cover at all.
Muehâzala going MIA and letting Bwonsamdi collect souls is also hard to understand move for me and I wish theyâd explain it in a way of form.
And lastly. Bwonsamdi being a mortal that ascended and is protecting souls in afterlife is quite amusing - Elune really looks bad in this situation that mere mortal is doing better job at protecting followers than she is.
But overall I have quite mixed feelings because this explanation gives more questions than answers.
They wanted to hype Muehâzalaâs character, and needed to make him grow beyond Bwonsamdiâs large shadow.
Sometimes, specially in the sort of loose stories as the one they had in Warcraft, writers throw retcons of varying degrees in order to give more hype regarding a new upcoming feature.
I honestly feel the dynamic wouldâve worked better if Muehâzala had been shown simply as Bwonsamdiâs equal and rival. Show some sort of Loa showdown for the control of troll souls.
But well, i honestly donât mind much about it. I dislike far more stuff like the Winter Queen.
I donât see the new lore regarding Bwonsamdi and Muehâzala as a problem, as it actually fits some of the head-canon a Troll RP guild I used to be part with used, as Muehâzala was always referred to as the God of Death among trolls, while Bwonsamdi only used to be referred to as the Loa of Graves.
Are you referring to where Bwonsamdi states the Loa came before Trolls? Because he can have been a Troll himself and that statement is still true as it doesnât actually state all Loa came before Trolls.
Muehâzala does have a shrine in Zuldazar, a small one, but it exists. It makes sense he isnât featured more widely within the city as the Zandalari donât worship him. The only tribe that has expressly been said to worship him is the Farraki, probably because Bwonsamdi doesnât look after their souls.
As for the retcon, didnât happen unless it also states elsewhere he predates Troll kind, because as I mentioned; in shadows of the horde he doesnât specifically state all Loa predate Trolls, or how many, his statement is vague. Even if he did state he was older than Troll-kind, he couldâve been lying.
Have you not listened to your father, Shadow Hunter? The loa came before the troll. Your father be asking what trolls were called before they were called trolls.
I wonât quote the entire paragraph, but the dialogue between Senjin, Volâjin and Bwonsamdi, clearly highlights the intended meaning: Bwonsamdi had been dealing with souls before trolls as we know them, came to be.
And given the context, it was nearly impossible to contemplate the possibility of him lying, because he did nothing but echo Senâjins words. Who had absolutely no reason at all to lie to Volâjin.
Thaâts nice for you. I hate retcons and such lore breaking rp concepts. They simply have to stay consistent. Itâs not that hard.
No problem with those 2 being separate things. It always was like that.
No. Iâm referring to poor Farraki fans because of the bad treatment Muehâzala gets. And no Bwonsamdi couldnât be a mortal Troll. This is only possible if they retcon Volâjin Shadow of a Horde. You are even contradicting yourself here.
Chapter 29
Pages 334-335
Thatâs not really true though. Yes he has a shrine in TalâFarrak on Zulâdazar. The implication is the Farraki build it.
Per rules of the loa Muehâzala shouldnât be that powerful (shrines and worshipers).
I know he has a small shrine in TalâFarrak. But what I meant is some proper lore about him in entire Zandalar. We have many tablets to learn about Loa, many priests even for the likes of Harâkoa and Shirvallah who also arenât of Zandalarâs Pantheon and not even one chronicler to talk about him or NPC in Necropolis that could shread some info at all.
THAT is weird. Considering that Zandalari are the scholar caste. If they have small caste as Lunâalai then having at least one NPC to recognise Muehâzala shouldâve been granted.
He said he knew trolls before they were called trolls. Meaning he was watching over them when they didnât fully evolve to what theyâre now.
Why would he lie if this one doesnât benefit him at all? He was already Patron of the Darkspear tribe for a while, there is nothing more he could gain.
If we assume that everything that comes from his mouth is lie, then literally every sentence he sais can be a lie as well including Muehâzala being his boss.
I recall the quote well enough, and as you even quoted it yourself, read it again. He doesnât explicitly say he pre-dates Trolls, or even knows what Trolls were called before they were Trolls, just âThe Loa came before the trollâ, a general statement. At the time, many of us took it to mean that Bwonsamdi may have been including himself in that statement, but even with Shadowlands stating otherwise, his statement in Shadows of the Horde is not contradicted.
Bwonsamdiâs cold chuckle rippled through Volâjinâs chest as the troll spun to face the loa. âHave you not listened to your father, Shadow Hunter? The loa came before the troll. Your father be asking what trolls were called before they were called trolls. I be asking what they were called before that, or before that. What you are be a river. Some will say that means you be water. They would have you stagnate. You be more, as a river be more than water.â
There is no statement that ALL loa came before Trolls, nor that Bwonsamdi even knows what Trolls were called before they came to be known as such. Heâs asking a further question from Senâjin who asked a similar question and not knowing the answer for himself. The intent posing a question of Troll identity to Volâjin.
Uh, the way I read it, he seems to be saying heâs much olderâŚlook at this;
The later suggests, that while Senâjin only looks at a certain point in the past, Bwonsamdi has been looking at a point way further back in time, I think this is a very cryptive way of him saying heâs far, far older.
Besides, if not all Loa came before the Trolls, then he could have just said âMost Loaâ or âSome Loaâ, but itâs seems to be a very general statement as I read it.
I can understand that from what quote people took it to mean that perhaps Bwonsamdi is older than he is, and has been around since before Trolls were Trolls and before that. But the vagueness of his words is what allows for that assumption to be made, heâs referring to the Loa in a plural sense, that they have existed before Trolls were Trolls, which is true, even now that Shadowlands states Bwonsamdi used to be a Troll. It doesnât make a statement that all Loa have existed longer than Trolls have, or that he himself has.
Even assuming he knows what Trolls were before they were Trolls, it doesnât mean he knows this first-hand, he could know from the other Loa.
I donât see how it was factually clear that when he said âloa predate trollsâ he was referring to all Loa, including himself. If he had been referring to all Loa, he wouldâve been wrong, as he isnât the only Loa that came about after Trolls existed.
When he includes himself in said collective in the next paragraph:
River be river. Wide and shallow, narrow, deep, and fastâit does not matter. We be spirits. Our concern be for your spirit. Abide by our compact, be true to your spirit and obligations, and you gonna prosper.
No, Iâm pointing out that the interpretation you held of Bwonsamdiâs vague comment about Loa being older than Trolls turned out to be wrong.
There is, because he referred to Loa in a general sense as we can see in that quote that has been posted more than once. You seem to be arguing that because he said Loa predate Trolls, that ALL loa predate Trolls, which would be a false claim.
Exact quote of where he specifically states he is older than Trolls. Because the quote posted already doesnât state that. I am genuinely interested if such a line exists. And if it does I will be on board that it is a ret-con, even though it is a ret-con that can be written off as Bwonsamdi having been lying, which also isnât new.
