Bwonsamdi lore bits [Spoilers]

Shamelessly yoinked from the US forums that brought it up :grimacing:

But for real, there is some interesting bits that could be discussed around here too:

Some dungeon information:
Bwonsamdi has kept a secret place in the Shadowlands he refers to as De Other Side. When the dead started funneling into the Maw, Bwonsamdi hid several in his little domain, keeping his troll followers safe. But this broke an old deal with Muehzala and now the ancient loa has come to harvest those souls and destroy their caretaker. Bwonsamdi will need help collecting on some of his other dealings if he is to survive this onslaught and protect the souls within.

Some implications derived from this new information:

  • Bwonsamdi seems to have been a Priest of Mueh’zala originally or at least depended on him enough to make a deal that granted him certain perks that are now threatened.
  • Mueh’zala is being unveiled as “the boss” he mentioned BFA.

In all, it does seem as if Bwonsamdi was in some way, ranking second beneath Mueh’zala, who in turn is being shown as the actual Loa of Death.
The text also points at the Other Side being entirely Bwonsamdis playground, but still tied to Mueh’zala in a way that makes it feel as if the latter gave said concession because of an old deal Bwon made with him.

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Yeah it’s weird considering Shadows of the Horde (chapter 29). And that’s why I don’t like it.
It is what it is, Blizzard will keep on changing things.

Edit: poor Farraki fans. But at least he doesn’t die.

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I like that idea of Bwonsamdi having his own realm or (pocket universe) in the shadowlands where he’s sending his followers to protect them. We know Bwonsamdi is a pain in the asss (stupid filter won’t even let me type the word a s s ??) but he’s a lovable one and it shows he wants to protect the balance of life/death.

Bwonsamdi is probably my favorite character to come out of BFA and i’m glad we’re getting more into his back story and helping him out against Mueh’zala. I just hope he doesn’t get killed off so we can learn more.

Bwonsamdi is without a doubt one of the best characters we got from bfa. Blizzard did an awesome job implementing him.

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I have hard time understanding how is that supposed to work. Zandalari the ancient lorekeepers and didn’t mention Mueh’zala in any way or form. You’d think they’d put him on the pantheon instead of grim reaper figure.

Bwonsamdi was meant to collect troll souls through millenias, and recent text makes it look like it was created recently?

I also don’t really like this retcon of him predating trolls. It was possible that he could’ve been some proto troll but again with this information they really need to properly expand upon it on when it happened and during which circumstances which I am pretty sure they won’t cover at all.

Mueh’zala going MIA and letting Bwonsamdi collect souls is also hard to understand move for me and I wish they’d explain it in a way of form.

And lastly. Bwonsamdi being a mortal that ascended and is protecting souls in afterlife is quite amusing - Elune really looks bad in this situation that mere mortal is doing better job at protecting followers than she is.

But overall I have quite mixed feelings because this explanation gives more questions than answers.

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It’s a retcon. Plain and simple.

They wanted to hype Mueh’zala’s character, and needed to make him grow beyond Bwonsamdi’s large shadow.
Sometimes, specially in the sort of loose stories as the one they had in Warcraft, writers throw retcons of varying degrees in order to give more hype regarding a new upcoming feature.

I honestly feel the dynamic would’ve worked better if Mueh’zala had been shown simply as Bwonsamdi’s equal and rival. Show some sort of Loa showdown for the control of troll souls.

But well, i honestly don’t mind much about it. I dislike far more stuff like the Winter Queen.

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Yeah pretty much this.

I don’t see the new lore regarding Bwonsamdi and Mueh’zala as a problem, as it actually fits some of the head-canon a Troll RP guild I used to be part with used, as Mueh’zala was always referred to as the God of Death among trolls, while Bwonsamdi only used to be referred to as the Loa of Graves.

Are you referring to where Bwonsamdi states the Loa came before Trolls? Because he can have been a Troll himself and that statement is still true as it doesn’t actually state all Loa came before Trolls.

Mueh’zala does have a shrine in Zuldazar, a small one, but it exists. It makes sense he isn’t featured more widely within the city as the Zandalari don’t worship him. The only tribe that has expressly been said to worship him is the Farraki, probably because Bwonsamdi doesn’t look after their souls.

As for the retcon, didn’t happen unless it also states elsewhere he predates Troll kind, because as I mentioned; in shadows of the horde he doesn’t specifically state all Loa predate Trolls, or how many, his statement is vague. Even if he did state he was older than Troll-kind, he could’ve been lying.

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Have you not listened to your father, Shadow Hunter? The loa came before the troll. Your father be asking what trolls were called before they were called trolls.

I won’t quote the entire paragraph, but the dialogue between Senjin, Vol’jin and Bwonsamdi, clearly highlights the intended meaning: Bwonsamdi had been dealing with souls before trolls as we know them, came to be.

And given the context, it was nearly impossible to contemplate the possibility of him lying, because he did nothing but echo Sen’jins words. Who had absolutely no reason at all to lie to Vol’jin.

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Tha’ts nice for you. I hate retcons and such lore breaking rp concepts. They simply have to stay consistent. It’s not that hard.

No problem with those 2 being separate things. It always was like that.

No. I’m referring to poor Farraki fans because of the bad treatment Mueh’zala gets. And no Bwonsamdi couldn’t be a mortal Troll. This is only possible if they retcon Vol’jin Shadow of a Horde. You are even contradicting yourself here.
Chapter 29
Pages 334-335

That’s not really true though. Yes he has a shrine in Tal’Farrak on Zul’dazar. The implication is the Farraki build it.

Per rules of the loa Mueh’zala shouldn’t be that powerful (shrines and worshipers).

Oh yes it definitely did.

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I know he has a small shrine in Tal’Farrak. But what I meant is some proper lore about him in entire Zandalar. We have many tablets to learn about Loa, many priests even for the likes of Har’koa and Shirvallah who also aren’t of Zandalar’s Pantheon and not even one chronicler to talk about him or NPC in Necropolis that could shread some info at all.

THAT is weird. Considering that Zandalari are the scholar caste. If they have small caste as Lun’alai then having at least one NPC to recognise Mueh’zala should’ve been granted.

He said he knew trolls before they were called trolls. Meaning he was watching over them when they didn’t fully evolve to what they’re now.
Why would he lie if this one doesn’t benefit him at all? He was already Patron of the Darkspear tribe for a while, there is nothing more he could gain.
If we assume that everything that comes from his mouth is lie, then literally every sentence he sais can be a lie as well including Mueh’zala being his boss.

That is cherrypicking imo.

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I recall the quote well enough, and as you even quoted it yourself, read it again. He doesn’t explicitly say he pre-dates Trolls, or even knows what Trolls were called before they were Trolls, just “The Loa came before the troll”, a general statement. At the time, many of us took it to mean that Bwonsamdi may have been including himself in that statement, but even with Shadowlands stating otherwise, his statement in Shadows of the Horde is not contradicted.

Bwonsamdi’s cold chuckle rippled through Vol’jin’s chest as the troll spun to face the loa. “Have you not listened to your father, Shadow Hunter? The loa came before the troll. Your father be asking what trolls were called before they were called trolls. I be asking what they were called before that, or before that. What you are be a river. Some will say that means you be water. They would have you stagnate. You be more, as a river be more than water.”

There is no statement that ALL loa came before Trolls, nor that Bwonsamdi even knows what Trolls were called before they came to be known as such. He’s asking a further question from Sen’jin who asked a similar question and not knowing the answer for himself. The intent posing a question of Troll identity to Vol’jin.

Uh, the way I read it, he seems to be saying he’s much older…look at this;

The later suggests, that while Sen’jin only looks at a certain point in the past, Bwonsamdi has been looking at a point way further back in time, I think this is a very cryptive way of him saying he’s far, far older.

Besides, if not all Loa came before the Trolls, then he could have just said ‘Most Loa’ or ‘Some Loa’, but it’s seems to be a very general statement as I read it.

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I can understand that from what quote people took it to mean that perhaps Bwonsamdi is older than he is, and has been around since before Trolls were Trolls and before that. But the vagueness of his words is what allows for that assumption to be made, he’s referring to the Loa in a plural sense, that they have existed before Trolls were Trolls, which is true, even now that Shadowlands states Bwonsamdi used to be a Troll. It doesn’t make a statement that all Loa have existed longer than Trolls have, or that he himself has.

Even assuming he knows what Trolls were before they were Trolls, it doesn’t mean he knows this first-hand, he could know from the other Loa.

Assuming he was talking about everybody else but him, seems a bit disingenuous given the context of the sentence.

Blizzard might seem all to willing to grasp at these sort of technicalities, but the message issued back then was rather clear.

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I don’t see how it was factually clear that when he said “loa predate trolls” he was referring to all Loa, including himself. If he had been referring to all Loa, he would’ve been wrong, as he isn’t the only Loa that came about after Trolls existed.

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When he includes himself in said collective in the next paragraph:

River be river. Wide and shallow, narrow, deep, and fast—it does not matter. We be spirits. Our concern be for your spirit. Abide by our compact, be true to your spirit and obligations, and you gonna prosper.

He includes himself in there because he too is a Loa, but again, that doesn’t imply that he is as old as other Loa. His statements were generalized.

You are defending a retcon.

No. There was no vagueness.

Bwonsamdi said he himself is older than trolls. So why would he exclude himself?

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No, I’m pointing out that the interpretation you held of Bwonsamdi’s vague comment about Loa being older than Trolls turned out to be wrong.

There is, because he referred to Loa in a general sense as we can see in that quote that has been posted more than once. You seem to be arguing that because he said Loa predate Trolls, that ALL loa predate Trolls, which would be a false claim.

Exact quote of where he specifically states he is older than Trolls. Because the quote posted already doesn’t state that. I am genuinely interested if such a line exists. And if it does I will be on board that it is a ret-con, even though it is a ret-con that can be written off as Bwonsamdi having been lying, which also isn’t new.

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