You know what you did. Yes those view people are toxic.
She wasn’t a horrible character. Blizzard butchered her and they can do it to anyone. Heck even Calias character was done dirty.
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Agreed. Thats what i meant.
Huh?
There’s not a single aspect of Calia leading the Forsaken that wouldn’t feel incredibly wrong. It would be both an absurd choice in regards to the lore and a humiliation to the Forsaken. It seems obvious to me that the reasonable option would be for the Alliance to work on being tolerant towards Undeads so that those who are (or were, before being raised) Alliance-aligned can join their actual faction. Undead is a biological nature, Forsaken is a political, cultural, historical identity
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and i agree with that completly!
My thread wasnt about Calia being the leader, its about respecting her as a character more knowing her story. Heck, if she was the Undead leader i wouldnt accept her at all. “for the light Lady”, lmao that doesnt work.
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No.
Most of the “hate” comes from the fact that at this point, she has little reasons to be accepted, welcomed, and given a relevant role within their faction (does not have to do with leadership), and yet it seems to be forced to such extent. She is a complete stranger to their cause in all but name.
So? What does that have to do with whether they should accept Calia or not?
Also, medivh didn’t ask every single citizen of Lordaeron. He asked Terenas alone.
So even if the Forsaken had to deal with the consequences of their ruler’s actions, they weren’t as accountable as you try and make them be.
Regardless, i don’t see how that is of any relevance regarding the fact that after all those events involving her father and brother, Calia simply fled and left her supposed subjects to deal with it all. To the point she insisted on ignoring their plea all the way to BfA.
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That I agree with. I think the Horde’s dislike and “disrespect” for Calia is really just a genuine and reasonable reaction to the perspective of being imposed a savior figure that they didn’t ask for and that has nothing to do with them
I really think the Alliance welcoming Undead who are aligned with it would be a good move because it would make it clear once and for all that Undeath is a status and not an identity, and subsequently than Forsaken is an identity and not a status
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Would they listen to her tho? She is a princess, not a prince. They never listened to her when she was royalty, why would they listen to her after her father’s death?
even Jaina warned the citizens of the upcoming undead, and they ignored her
She may not have been there to protect them during the Third war, but she tried to protect them in Arathi and she ended up dying in the process.
anyway I like Princess Tess better than Calia. Wow kinda butchered Calia’s character tbh, as they did with Sylvanas
To make it work, that would require quite a lot of ret-conning to come into play. She is literally raised by the Light daughter of the founder of the alliance. Now, consider how many characters / races are tied to Terenas 2nd or the Light?
Calia Menethil is literally the 1st undead even that can seriously change how the common folk of the alliance see undead. That is, of course, if she becomes a common presence in the alliance.
Tyrande and other night elves were welcoming to the raised night elves. It would be odd to say “it’s ok if undead stay with their loved ones”, and then to say “it’s not ok if undead stay with their loved ones”.
She could’ve been a basis for a good story. As a concept. Terribly handled in the game though. But which part of the story isn’t?
It’s not IMO about just that. To explain my point, I’ll refer to one of BfA interviews with the current narrative lead:
Battle for Azeroth is absolutely an opportunity to look at both sides [honorable and evil] that have made up the Horde storylines throughout the years and pull them together. And maybe give a chance for the Horde to look inward and maybe become something new…
© https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2018/8/17/17697560/world-of-warcraft-battle-for-azeroth-interview-blizzard-horde-alliance-wow
Now, tell me, how many players who chose to play the horde (not because of the flavour of the month racials, but genuinely interested it the faction) were dreaming for the days when the devs will change the faction into something different, that it never was?
Now, of course the devs portrayed it as a change for the better, because of course they would. But who asked for replacement of what they chose, for demonizing them first in order to seek for the justification for such change?
And what can be seen in the forsaken side is the same thing. The devs come and say “that thing you liked, actually suck! Now we’re going to change and “improve” it”. Which is, regardless of wanna be positive in wording, is a way to say “remove what you like from the game”.
Calia is a conduint for the Light’s power. And the thing is, it has a very special side effects on the undead in general.
From the wowpedia "Forsaken" article:
Record of undead emoting positive emotions are rare, though there are reports, however, that some Forsaken have slowly experienced a sharpening of their dulled senses of touch, smell, etc., as well as an increase in the flashes of positive emotions that have otherwise become so rare since their fall into undeath, when influenced by the Holy Light. The drawback however, is that they also become disgusted with themselves and are likely to increase attempts at their own self-destruction; for regaining these senses would force the undead to smell their own rotting flesh, taste the decay in their mouths and throats, and even feel the maggots burrowing within their bodies
Yes, restoring old emotions and senses is what some undead would want. Those who care more about who they were before being undead.
But such exposure would indiscriminately alter the mental state of all undead nearby, regardless of her role, just because she is physically close to them. Which would be a total replacement of what they are.
IMO that is one of key reasons for why it is not wanted: because the players who chose the forsaken did not make that choice in hopes that one days the devs will throw away what they like and replace it with a diet tauren mentality (referring to the Shadowlands alpha description of the forsaken as “protectors of the living”)
ninja edit:
Once upon a time, in the table top Warcraft rpg, there was the “forsaken captive scenario”. Should that be kept and evolved, it could’ve been a basis for some stories with her: be it legitimately learning about the forsaken and what they are, if the devs would make a choice in Cata, that after death of Arthas Sylvanas should take a villain path instead of Garrosh, and follow up some forsaken dialogues of the time that stated things like “Sylvanas is not like she was before”.
Or, that could be a card to play by the alliance. Be it diplomacy, or aggression, or a way to explore human nobility, etc. There were ways to use her that way too. Yet the devs needed “light undead”, so here we are, ages later and with a lot of “what is it even” questions instead.
© https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Calia_Menethil#Forsaken_captive
gl hf
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Yep and as you implied they’re probably a small minority by now, at least among people who’ve been Forsaken for a while, considering how one of the defining traits of the Forsaken culture is rejecting everything related to your past life and building yourself a brand new identity as an Undead
Which leads us to another main problem with the perspective of Calia being an authority figure for the Undead : her legitimacy is based on her status of rightful heir to the throne of Lordaeron (even though she did say that she was not a princess anymore, which… was an easy move to make right). But, added to the culture of amnesia I just mentioned, is the fact that many current Forsaken were never Lordaeroni in the first place. So, like, in every imaginable way, she’s literally nobody to the Forsaken
So yeah. Even if her ruling the Forsaken was out of the equation… what could possibly tie her to the Horde ? Come on what is wrong with the writers
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A few extra notes.
Now, hold the phone.
If the game would not be about praising Anduin’s ideology, she could’ve been an amazing characters, that in the alliance could’ve been “tense, but needed”, and someone good to hate on the horde side.
But yes, with the current team and how they handle the faction narrative, she better to stay away, so that there is at least a chance to stay an interesting character.
Not with how the devs implement her story.
Example, since I am sort of emotially invested in the “there is no place for a Menethil in the horde” topic:
- her reasoning for why she made a choice to be raised as undead, and not as human:
“I prayed that my family, too, would be spared. But…” Her voice trailed off. “I never saw them again.”
And then, with a realization that stopped his breathing with shock, Anduin understood why Calia had decided to befriend the Forsaken. Why, instead of seeing them as the destroyers of her city, her way of life, and all her family, she had chosen to identify with them.
- the players are not really given the idea that Calia had a motivation to find her family, with the forsaken being her #1 guess
- in the pre-patch, she was all alone in Orgrimmar, no family found, which, given how Lor’themar talked to her, means that she could seek across all of the horde for the info, and they are likely not there;
- the players I am almost sure, did not even get this idea;
- Shadowlands would be the next logical place to seek for them, but the players are not presented at all with the concept, that behind all the high speeches, that could be just a woman using every opportunity she could, to seek for her child and husband.
I mean, that would’ve been a much more human and IMO easier to relate to motivation. But that would throw a wrench into her role among the forsaken take, which probably was considered at some point by the devs. Because that would’ve been a confirmation that she is not there for them, at all (as I see it).
With that kind of implementation of the story, where I have to go for cross referencing around and find sources to figure things out, especially for a character that is related to Arthas of all people, there is not much, I do not think that is realistic to expect the players to have better opinions about her story execution.
In the pre-patch she had a line:
Valeera Sanguinar says: Lady Menethil, may I ask if… oh, forgive me. Should I refer to you as princess, or are you now a queen?
Calia Menethil says: Lady Menethil is fine. Calia is even better. I gave up my claim to the throne long ago.
© https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Rising#Horde
So, hopefully that is the case.
Well, I have some bad news for how Golden portrayed her story:
“You also almost started a war,” Anduin said, his voice hard. “You could have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Do you understand that?”
She looked chagrined. “I do now,” she said. “I was never taught how to rule, Anduin, because no one expected me to. I never formally studied politics or strategy.“
Yup, if the alpha she was “neutral” / yellow to the alliance, while Thalyssra was “friendly” / green. Over time it was changed, and Valeera was removed from the horde side in the ICC quest completely.
Now, are you asking for continuity in the story? It’s almost a criminal request
/s
I just think the devs tried to retro fit her into a story never meant to accomodate her properly.
Just as a bunch of things, including some recent, many things are just steated as a narrative tool to arrive where the devs want.
The way he did it was far from brilliant, tbh.
That story is almost comical. In the book she tries to talk to Tyrande about the night elves, and she says that it’s not time for that talk.
And after she knew Tyrande is not going to talk to her about the raised night elves, she goes (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Banshee%27s_Champion):
Calia Menethil says: I do not wish to speak out of turn, Regent Lord, but I have given counsel to the kaldorei who were raised into undeath after the battle for Darkshore.
Calia Menethil says: I believe I have helped them find a path forward. Perhaps if I spoke of them to the High Priestess, it might help ease her spirit, if only a little.
Personal highlight on how that story was handled (face cam):
If you mean Shadows Rising, I guess because the writer wanted to see her co-lead the forsaken with Voss. (ugh, Nobbel made the interview video private) The devs did not correct it at the time (maybe wanted to see the reaction?)
gl hf
Thanks everyone for the Discussion. It was interesting!
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Calia’s main story hook is the Light’s machinations that made her what she is. If Blizzard just wanted a story about the Menethil heir claiming her throne, they would have made her a Forsaken. Indeed, it could have been a relatively decent story if it were Forsaken defectors that pulled Calia’s corpse from the Arathi killing grounds, after Sylvanas turned against her own there, and started a resistance movement around her.
But that’s not what Blizz did with her. She is an obvious pawn of the Light/Saa’ra. The Forsaken are not. And I can’t see any way dragging the Forsaken in a Light-plot because they are suddenly slavishly devoted to Calia could work. I guess that doesn’t mean that sufficiently bad writers won’t do it, but that would be a horribly unforced error on Blizz’s part.
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Calia is a joke gone too far.
Whenever I see her I think about the evil Light expansion. There’s nothing good that can come out of this story.
Her presence in the Horde gives me goosebumps. The way she managed to wrap everyone around her finger is downright creepy. It’s like they’re all brainwashed or something.
I don’t trust her one bit.
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Yeah…
I’d stop trying to find an actual ingame explanation for it.
Those bits are obviously just authorial fiat.
Like much else in these past expansions
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Conceptually, she could’ve been amazing character that can move forward plenty of stories (mostly alliance ones though).
Will the current dev team use her that way though? I am not sure…
That’s how her presence should affect the forsaken. But when it comes to Geya’rah, I think she is not in the ful 
mode is because she in not aware of how she became what she is currently.
gl hf
I hope she will, as long as they don’t give Alliance LF Undead.
As much as I love having those dead Night Elves in the Horde, I hope Calia’s true purpose is to mediate and send them home. And that pretty much means that Alliance gets Dark Rangers.
That’s what it looks like yes. She seems more like a machine than a person.
That would be cool, even though i can already create a cool Dark Ranger blood elf with the proper transmog
No. A tyrant like her, crazy for power would not fit the Alliance, at all. Yes she is also pretty much the opposite of the Night Elves.
Yes, after the backlash, I know. That’s why I wrote, that the backlash perhaps made a difference… She claimed in the book to be the true ruler and queen of Lordaeron.
I know what I’m referring too. I don’t trust this at all.
Yeah it’s rather strange, even more so at other royals in Warcraft.
I think this came from Blizzard and I don’t think Golden is against this idea, Calia is her baby. But we will see.
Her concept is terrible. A light undead, front and center for the Forsaken instead of actual Forsaken characters is such a bad idea. There is nothing good that can come from such a terrible concept.
If for a moment we assume a more consistent progression of the story, Shadows Rising had a line that the night elves seem themselves betrayed by the alliance.
At the same time, after the events of BfA, they fully accepted in their society the returning highborne.
So 2 + 2 could be in this case “maybe if noone is trust worthy, the Empire actually had a point”. Which could be a basis for some interesting stories IMO.
When it comes to the portrayal of Azshara, since the devs already decided to dive into the “unreliable narrator” territory, more or less all the sources of out our information about her are from her opponents, which might mean “limited information and bias”. (the assumption is the actual use of “unreliable narrator” as a tool for story-telling, rather than ret-coning if convenient)
But yeah, with what we have in practice, she is better to stay away from the Anduin cheerleading team.
That’s what I hope for.
With such takes on the story and characters, it portrays a grim picture for the not so distant future. I was willing to give a shot to the team after the changes from BfA, and the replacement of Alex “what’s cool” Afrasiabi. Sadly, we seem to get Steve “what continuity?” Danuser.
If you assume the forsaken / horde story, yes, I agree. To make her fit would require a lot of work, only to explore 1 topic: forsaken who care about undeath time vs. forsaken, who cares about pre-undeath time.
Only the alliance side though, there are so many plots left hanging, from origins of Lordaeron and why it was chosen by naaru (Mereldar story), to modern times, human nobles, broken nation of Lordaeron, etc.
She could’ve been almost an elegant solution to move many plots forward. But… could “elegant solutions” and “blizzard current narrative team” concepts co-exist?
gl hf
well Valeera is realy not that loyal to the horde at all, she might be to lorthemar and thrall, but not the rest realy, as for alliance, she more or less is friend whit anduin, through his father not much else.