Can demons use Arcane?

Argent Dawn
21

First I want to say that current magic explanations kinda suck by Blizzard and from the Warcraft RPG and books the magic is almost at a state that I’m just waiting for some new empowered mage apprentice overpower Gul’dan tier char with arcane and power of love Disney style. What I am trying to say is that currently lore is inconsistent.

Anyway, imo arcane magic is still mostly “math” and you study it in order to forcefully twist reality to your favor. So if your character knew how to do it as a mage, I see no reason why it would not suddenly know it if he became warlock or even demon.

Lorewise everything has been written here, but since we are roleplaying with people who have different opinions about the topic it kinda boils down into finding the common ground, which means you may have to explain your view. In wow characters tend to become “attuned” with the powers they mess around with. You could still say, that if demon is using arcane, it still gets little tainted by his affilation with fel, but it works. So maybe it is not pure arcane, but close enough.

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22

Correct; the fel corruption is distinctly different and what Illidan did broke their dependancy and as such, the Legion death cult’s hold on them. It did not change their demonic nature.

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23

Those are supposedly Arcane Tattoos. They are used to counter the Fel Corruption. So if anything the Tattoos should make it even easier to use Arcane, whereas a Demon is fully corrupted and doesn’t even have the tattoos to help him out. So if a Demon Hunter with tattoos and far less fel corruption than a Demon can’t use the Arcane, it would stand to reason that a Demon can’t, either.

There’s a balance that must be struck, , when becoming a [demon hunter] In order to maintain that balance, we must infuse ourselves with opposite forces of nature.

energy is counteracted by energy. We mark our bodies with arcane [runes] to keep our fel forces in check.

You are a scribe, yes? Then you should have no trouble mixing a suitable ley pigment from the ley dust on the creatures in the ruins up ahead.

As per usual it’s a case of too many cooks one kitchen. Even Metzen thought Falstad was dead, so mistakes happen.

I generally tend to favor proper writing ( Quest descriptions, novels ) over NPCs, since I’m pretty sure the guys who make the mobs you fight aren’t lore nerds. So a Demon using Holy Light or something could simply be a mistake.

24

If you define Natherzim as actual demons, they got arcanists using arcane.

Other Natherzim used different schools as well, like Kin’tessa, that uses nature magic - Mal’Ganis used combined school spells nature/shadow, Balnazzar uses arcane based domination spells, Vagath the Betrayed uses nature, so on and on.

Other Demons using Nature (ignoring things like thunderclap, tar expulsion, accid spray and the like) is Xavius, Imp Mother Folnura, Temptrests, Man’Ari Tauren (Tugar Bloodtotem and co - also uses elmental magic, frost/fire), Bestrix, among many more.

I totally forgot the point (I blame my brain), but you got arcane casters as well, sorry - Belac, Vizuul the Twisted (Man’Ari), and a bunch more I forgot to note. Theme being - benefical or focused damage spells seems to be arcane themed, even if called ‘Fel infused’.

Other demons using Holy Y’Beda (Man’ari), Y’Sorna (Man’ari), and some other Man’ari NPCs sworn to the legion. Very fanatically so as well. Would explain how, as it would basically just be the scarlet crusade reasoning. They truly do believe they are justicars on behalf of the Burning Legion. Side tangent: As they are the only winged Man’Ari Eredar (except Kil’Jaden), are they blessed by Sargeras for their fervor?

Then you got the infernal type demons, Blasphemy, that uses arcane spells, same as wild imps.

Also you got devour magic and spell purge, both being arcane (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=204885/devour-magic). The classic felhound nomnom spell purge and stop - for context. Demonic Tyrant gets hasted by arcane.

Never forget the classic chaos magic, that is treated as all spellschools at once (dated - but reappearing in DF here: (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=418558/chaos-bolt). Mind you, another Natherzim.
And all the “chaos” spells, that is supposed to represent demons unleashing ‘chaos’ magic as inspired from Warcraft 3, like (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=253679/bad-breath).

I gone through over 300 demons, there are still over 2000 to go, that from Legion to DF.

Now, pattern seem to be that Natherzim can use whatever they want (if they even are demons, as per SL lore). Other demons seem themed to use arcane to control or focus their fel based spells - or use it as pure beneficial time/haste based effects. Then, you got things like felhounds - just noming or suppressing/controlling magic and that is arcane. Blink and such, fall into this category.

Hope you find this helpful on your quest to decide if you feel it to be right if Man’ari can use the arcane or not.

25

I wouldn’t include Dreadlords already due to their ability to inflitrate everything. However even in SL they are classified as Demons, even Kin’tessa whom we saw 1st time. Lothraxion remains the only Nathrezim I know about to be classifed as Humanoid.

No they aren’t. These winged female Eredar are called Doommaidens and other NPCs using the model aswell. Next to the 3 sisters (Y’Beda, Y’sorna and Y’Morna) you got Talestra the Vile and Commander Vecaya in Krokuun, Void Warden Valsuran in Antoran Wastes and in the Antorus raid you got Antoran Champion trash mobs and boss Portal Keeper Hasabel and Admiral Svirax within Antoran High Command using this model. It’s probably just deeper mutation or “ascension” similar to Eredar Brute for males, altough it seems to be more rare as Brutes are also open world trash mobs on Argus.

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26

Lothraxion is a weird one. It feels like he should have come up or otherwise been referenced in Shadowlands but never did. He could have been a more interesting ‘heel turn’ character, still loyal to Denathrius.

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27

He was referenced slyly in an in-game book item found in Revendreth.

https://www.wowhead.com/item=183742/enemy-infiltration-preface

Similar to the titans, the naaru and their keepers are singular in purpose. Their adherence to a linear path is an obvious shortcoming.

They savor nothing more than being proved right, so if they believe they have converted one of us to their precious Light, they will trust that agent implicitly.

Implies Lothraxion following the Light isn’t quite so sincere, but then it’s equally possible that the (in-game) writer is arrogant and wrong.

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28

Yeah, I had that in the back of my mind while writing my post. I should have said referenced properly in a way that made it clear whichever way his loyalties truly were.

It’s an example of poor writing by Blizzard, but it would have made sense that - if he was truly loyal to the Light - he would’ve filled us in on the Nathrezim’s true purposes. Since he didn’t, we should have been asking ‘why not?’

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Proper follow ups to information the player character receives are anathema to Blizzard’s writing, frustratingly.

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30

We’re talking about cosmic forces rather than schools, but anyway I checked your examples to see if I would learn anything new and… didn’t learn anything new.

These aren’t Legion-trained Nathrezim but Mawsworn, so I would say it no longer applies. Besides, they have three abilities: drain life, carrion swarm, shadow bolt. No one of the above is arcane.

Doesn’t really use arcane, only shadow and fel.

Literally uses only fel fire magic and a AOE death grip called “nether imprisonement.”

It’s literally a shadow-infused infernal that deals fire damage.

Checked four examples, all of them wrong. Stop making up lore.

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31

I will take you in good faith,

I agree Natherzim is a wobbly case, yet they are classified ingame as demons, they do drop demon souls on death. But, yeah. They are something different, probably. ‘Mawsworn’ as a concept, just means sworn to the maw, or part of the Jailers army of the Maw. So - it is a big difficult to use that term as a reason to brush them off as being demons, but, yeah.

Condensed Fel Energy - Spell - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com) is classified as arcane school. It does ARCANE damage. It is used by Vizuul the Twisted.

Belac, said he does not use arcane:
Belac - NPC - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com)

Belac uses Fel Squall - Spell - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com) It is qualified as arcane.

Rest of the examples are also the same. So, if you disagree that he uses arcane, because the school or damage type done doesn’t matter - then of course.

Now, I could go through the rest of my examples as well, and they would hold true as this. Yet, if your argument is that these kinds of spells isn’t actually Arcane, even if marked as Arcane. Then sure - by your definition, they are not arcane.

Hope this clarified how I defined arcane being used :dracthyr_heart:

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These were likely copy-pasted spells from other spells categorized as arcane, what you see as “magic school” on wowhead isn’t a lore-accurate categorization, it is entirely a pre-game mechanic.

And on top of that, the names of the spells you linked are literally FEL ENERGY and FEL SQUALL. Are depicted as green and have fel flames, no? They are fel magic.

33

I am glad we got to show the main disagreement point between us then on the matter. You do not care what the spells do, are called or how the game qualifies them. That is fine, you are allowed to.

OP asked for arcane spells being used by demons ingame - and I obliged.

If a spell is sourced as arcane, it does the classic arcane effects - like haste, or damage, teleports, spell interuption and control. Well, that in my mind seems very arcane.

Empowering/controling Fel effects also seem very arcany.

Now, still, I would like if you did not call me out for lying and being false, when I could source my information. As it stands, you lied and called me a lier. It can happen, if you had other sources than WoWhead (the offical place to go) - I do forgive you for that. Still, in the future refrain from defaming based on your feelings about the matter and off-sources.

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You aren’t, really.

Don’t try to strawman others and then act condescending. It’s not very nice. For example, saying I don’t care about:

is clearly wrong since part of my counter-argument was exactly based on both what the spell did/how it looked and what it was called, and for example those you linked are called FEL -name-, indicating that they are fel-based.

The point of disagreement, as you call it, is that I am concerned with the lore behind it. I doubt OP was asking if the wowhead categorization classifies them as arcane. You will likely find all sorts of non-canonical things there, such as Holy Light spells falling under nature, etc., because these aren’t canon, that was a categorization tool made for classic and mostly thought to be used for players, thus it never had to be accurate with NPCs, let alone now that it has become obsolete.

35

I am sorry, you strike me as someone that just want to be correct, ignoring what was stated and said.

You said you looked it up, and that the NPC did not cast that spell. I retorted, with absolute proof, that the NPCs do in fact cast arcane spells ingame and your statement of “you are lying, that NPC does only have this other ability” was false. You trying to row from this anchor point is downright disgusting.

You are avoiding that fact, that you outright lied. Or was spreading misinformation by mistake. Your attempt was clearly defaming with your “it is headcannon”. When it is sourced from WoWhead as factual data.

Based on what I have seen, I can’t trust you to be honest or genuine in this discussion or any other. In your response, you made it perfectly clear - that you just want to be right about what you said, ignoring what I mentioned or corrections you would have to do all together.

If you don’t call the classic arcane abilities arcane, just because a demon uses it (like blink, empower magic and haste), then we are never going to see eye to eye. You clearly ignore my points outright for your own steelmaning your own position.

From this point on. As you refuse to accept or entertain the idea that you were wrong, you clearly just want to debate bro and end up “feeling like you are correct”.

I thank you for your time. I truly hope no one takes what you say from this point to heart. As you are a lier and a defamer. That seems to be your two go-to’s.

36

You’re being melodramatic now.

Your proof is not absolute at all, it’s just bad.

Half of your post is about you proclaiming how “absolutely right” you are about this topic without adding any substance. More often than not, being inquisitive or humble are good traits that indicate that you don’t want to just “be right about what you said”, which is what you accuse me of.

You are closing yourself off from any criticism because the mere idea of engaging in an honest debate scares you, so you resort to fabricate personal attacks and put in my mouth things I have not said.

I don’t think I called you a liar, I said you made up lore. Which I think is true. Could be ignorance, could be a genuine mistake, could be intentional, but I am quite sure that is what is going on.

For example, this spell here (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=58153/unholy-light) isn’t a Holy Light spell. It is the exact opposite. But it is categorized as Holy Light because these spells are created with an Editor likely similar to the Warcraft 3 editor which forces you to select a “school category” and whoever made this spell decided to simply copy an holy light spell, change name and effects, and called it a day.

That school category does a single thing: when you are kicked, for example, it prevents you from casting the same school. That’s it. There’s no real canon lore about it.

Heh, you’ve gone such a long way from pretending to be an open-minded person in just two posts. I believe you dislike disagreement and can’t handle it, hence you’re resorting to these personal attacks.

  1. Haste isn’t an “arcane ability”, it is an attribute. Most cosmic forces, in the lore, can increase haste.
  2. Empower magic is a name you just made up and from the sound of it it isn’t a “classic arcane” ability, since any cosmic power can empower someone else’s magic.
  3. Blink is usually considered an arcane spell, though strictly speaking it doesn’t have to be (ie. https://www.wowhead.com/spell=130260/shadow-blink) and it is not a spell we discussed at all. What we discussed were outright bad examples.

If instead of taking it on a personal level you actually displayed even a fragment of the knowledge you proclaim to have, you’d know that there is a demon which uses arcane magic, and that is Othaar/Socrethaar.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=80076/exarch-othaar#abilities

This eredar uses an arcane barrage against the player, which is arguably canon that he can do that (he had to hide his identity for a while, and casting arcane while in disguise was probably something he had to do now and then).

Far from a flawless example, as it is unclear if he had already become a demon or if he decides to ascend during the encounter. And assuming he was a demon already, which is more likely I’d argue, he has just been turned into a demon and did never travel in the Nether. So not a strong example, but an example still.

I’d still go with what I said at the beginning: casting arcane is possible for a demon, but with difficulty. It’s not the standard, etc. etc.

37

Now, I cant say if you did or not learn something new.

Still:

  • The demons I mentioned do in fact use arcane school spells ingame, even the one you fact checked. I disproved it three posts ago.
  • You called me a lier and that all data I showed was false. I proved my data to be sourced and correctly so.
  • You tried to defame my person, based on the false claim above.
  • After this was brought to light; you have only defended yourself over and over.

The argumentation and discussion ended when you broke from logical form:

  1. You claim was proven wrong; anything that you built upon it is as such irrelevant.
  1. You refuse to correct yourself or accept that you were in fact wrong, proving you don’t want discuss - you want to argue and be right.
  1. You refused to backtrack and correct your line of logic. Sure, it might be right or not - yet, you have based it on a fundamental lie in that you claimed that my information was false. Hopefully you see how it loops back. It is an anchor point.

You have only blatently stated I am wrong, even when proven correct. You refute this. You make 100 lines of text to say: “No I am right, you are wrong.” Without ever saying, that you yourself were wrong on the matter. Then you keep trying to broaden the topic of discussion with myself - yet not actually interacting with my words.

Yes, that way you behave disgusts me. This is simply a fact.

Anything you say is simply not connected to any of my arguments, as your argumentation is founded on me being wrong on the information given. I disproved it. The arguments that you shovel in after doesn’t hold to the matter at hand.

That being:

  1. Demons ingame use arcane spell school magic and effects.
  2. Demons ingame use other schools of magic as well.

You can argue all you want around the validity of those points taken to a lore setting. I don’t care, that is not my discussion nor never has been my point.

What you did was try to disclaim my argument and prove me a lier. That is your opening argument: All I said was wrong and false.

From that point on - we are at an impass untill you correct yourself. Something you have proven again and again, unable to do.

I will not play around your ego and try to hide the fact your whole tirade of follow up posts have been nothing more than a poor attempt to sweep the main issue under the rug. That you falsely disclaimed my information, and that you tried to defame my person.

It stops and ends there. Your thoughts on all the other topics on this globe does not matter to the argument at hand.

38

That’s called a statement, not an argument.

I have posted several arguments. One considers the best inference: if it looks like fel energy, it is called fel energy, and works like fel energy… it’s likely to be fel energy. Even when you have it classified as “arcane school” inside the classification system.

I then offered an explanation as to how it’s possible: the editor copies other spells and whoever made that spell did not feel like changing a school which would have no real impact in the game. I corroborated my point by pointing out that Blizzard already used the same logic in Warcraft 3, which has an editor that works in similar ways.

Then, when that did not work, I pointed out at inconsistencies and contradictions of your own reasoning. I used your logic with other spells to show it doesn’t hold water, like with the spell Unholy Light (which is the opposite of the Holy Light and uses a shadow animation) and yet it is still classified, in the School section, under “Holy”.

That naturally makes no sense from a lore POV or a worldbuilding perspective. The best explanation is that the School system isn’t accurate.

There is nothing to correct there. I am right: the cases you mentioned aren’t valid for this discussion.

Then your point was completely irrelevant to OP’s discussion and to this topic? Which is what we were debating here. But whatever, sure.

You know, it is fun that you mention it: disgust is found in people with a low openness to experience. Openness to experience is, interestingly enough, (slightly) correlated positively with IQ.

Traits like disgust, therefore, are correlated negatively. Perhaps we have just corroborated the statistics, hm?

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39

OP asked, can someone give me some examples of demons ingame using arcane from Legion and newer. I did. There are myriads of examples.

Your statement, or argument, is based on my information being false. It was not. I disproved this.

You disagree from a point that has nothing to do with the factual data, data being datapoints saying: Spell is arcane school, spell does arcane damage or spell are of other orgins and used by demons in game.

You can discuss with others about its lore implications. I brought up a fact, Demon NPCs do use arcane and other magic schools in their kit ingame.

You called me a lier, you keep pushing that perspective. Ignoring the matter of fact.

We are done here.

40

If a demon uses a spell called “Fel Doom” or some such, I don’t really care what the technical damage type ends up being ingame. The name of the spell clearly signifies its nature and intended effect - ergo a demon in such a scenario would not canonically be using arcane or any other type of magic.

It’d be using fel, and make for a poor argument in any sort of lore-related discussion beyond that. It’s not a topic of stacking damage-type resistances in WoW Classic in which such data would be relevant, it’s a topic of lore.

Now on the topic itself, I don’t see why demons couldn’t conceivable make use of the arcane from a lore-wise perspective. Nothing really prevents them from doing so afaik, though the addictive rush of fel might make such pursuits seem inferior.

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