Can lore dictate faction balance ?

Lore Story
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Hello Everyone.

I apologize, for the third thread I am creating today.
But I am very interested in creating another topic, after a discussion in another thread.

In your opinion:
Does lore, dictate player balance ?
I mean does the fact, the lore dictates a faction to be chaotic and other to be lawfull, has any influence on peoples choice ?
I mean not only our case, but the player population in general.

Or is PVE and PvP aspects of the game, more important ?
Consider A faction as chaotic, B faction as lawfull.
Faction A is doing far better in mithic/raids/PvP scenario than faction B.
Would the majority of the WoW population play A faction, given the chance, because of having a much better time finding raiding/PvP guilds over lore alignments ?

Thanks for your attention.
Cheers.
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Gameplay trumps lore almost every time.

The majority of players will gravitate towards what they consider cool, OP regarding pvp and/or pve, or a combination of both.
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Generally the Alliance and Horde have roughly the same population, but in the 120 level tier (which is the only one that matters, let's be real), the Horde has much more players than the Alliance. That's because it is clear by now that the Horde has much better racials, hence why most players gravitate towards the Horde for the end-game content, and indeed only the Mythic scene is dominated by Horde guilds right now. So if you play this game with the mindset of "I want to clear raids and succeed in PvP", then obviously you will most likely go Horde, since its racials are vastly superior. it is therefore not a surprise that Horde queues for Battlegrounds are also generally much longer than Alliance, and that Alliance players in War Mode are usually as rare as Gnomish presence in the lore. Lore plays no role here.

I mean, Realmpop (which is generally very accurate, it is certainly the best source there is), 56% of the level 120 players on Europe are Horde. That's incredible.
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Nice replies, thank you Zarao and Arctur.
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It is not so much of the racials what is the reason why the Horde PvE end game is so much bigger than the Alliance (not anymore) it is just there is more opportunity now because of how big it is. The racials should have been changed much earlier on in the game to stop this and no amount of balancing (within reason) will change this

The Alliance top-down system for raiding is being toxic and is poisoning the scene because of it, ofc' the lesser you go down the less it will affect you but you sure will notice it if you start moving up. The top 80/100 guilds are Horde, and if you are Alliance who wants to break into these then you need to switch or try and find a spot in the limited guilds there are, then this creates pressure on the normal-mythic raiders who would like to move higher but can't. And it goes on.

On a different part I do think the reason the Alliance got Void Elves instead of High Elves is because of the mass exidous of people who would switch sides because of it. 40% of the Horde's character pop' is Blood Elves and if only 10% of them change it would still be a 8% change in population which could cause havoc. That is why I don't think they will become a allied race any time soon unless there is something on the Horde side to balance it out.
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30/10/2018 18:56Posted by Frozengrip
On a different part I do think the reason the Alliance got Void Elves instead of High Elves is because of the mass exidous of people who would switch sides because of it. 40% of the Horde's character pop' is Blood Elves and if only 10% of them change it would still be a 8% change in population which could cause havoc. That is why I don't think they will become a allied race any time soon unless there is something on the Horde side to balance it out.

Good point. Thanks for pointing that, for me.
I was wondering that myself now.

So we can conclude lore doesn't have huge impact on player choice, Mithic/raids scene are more important.
So if you are lawful or chaotic is lesser important, if you compare that to finishing the game.

My next question would be: having a shiny model of a Blood Elf/High Elf on your screen more important than the lore in your opinion ?
For player balance again.

I know I play a Blood Elf, but for clarifications, my character in vanilla was a Troll hunter, in TBC a Forsaken priest.
I never changed to Alliance because of the beautiful models of Humans and Night Elfs, (I played a NE hunter till LV 39 than deleted her). Because of that I have a hard time understanding why a Alliance player would play Horde just for the shiny Blood Elf, than change back for the High Elf (imaginary scenario).

Cheers.
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I am playing with the both factions from years .. to know the both sides of the story .
The whole event with Sylvanas and Teldrassil was too much for me. Invading or overtaking Teldrassil is acceptable for me. Killing the Night elves and rising them again too. But burning the World Tree with civilians and innocent... Well that’s not for me . I know it’s only a game and not a real story . I would never follow such a story and I don’t want to be part of it ..
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I choose Kaldorei for the lore, and I have only played Kaldorei since then. My only 4 characters are Kaldorei.

I play this game however I please, with the race I love. I think its easy for me, since I care little for virtual goals. I try to raid from time-to-time, and would love to try heroic Uldir soon, but its not a deal breaker for me to never get past normal raids. I sometime pvp, although I lack the... reflex, to outwit and outmove my enemies and that makes me salty as hell... The only reason I could do real PvP is if I decide I really, really want to get the Warsabers.

Mythics are nice, although I never went past mythic 6, I belief... So there is that..

Yea I play the game due to Night Elves. And its the reason I only play Night Elves!
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30/10/2018 18:56Posted by Frozengrip
On a different part I do think the reason the Alliance got Void Elves instead of High Elves is because of the mass exidous of people who would switch sides because of it. 40% of the Horde's character pop' is Blood Elves and if only 10% of them change it would still be a 8% change in population which could cause havoc. That is why I don't think they will become a allied race any time soon unless there is something on the Horde side to balance it out

I'm still not buying that one. I really don't see why people would change faction, leaving ther ingame friends behind, to play... using the same model they are already playing. I'd rather think that a new High Elf race would be more interesting for people who already have social circles within the Alliance.

I'm still hoping that they are just so adamant on the High Elf issue because they know that faction boundaries will be weakened sooner or later, and that High Elves would be redundant. If you can group up with Alliance players, communicate with them and visit their cities without getting killed, you don't need a new race for High Elves, you just need the option of choosing blue eyes.
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30/10/2018 21:26Posted by Wimbert
I'm still not buying that one. I really don't see why people would change faction, leaving ther ingame friends behind, to play... using the same model they are already playing. I'd rather think that a new High Elf race would be more interesting for people who already have social circles within the Alliance.

I'm still hoping that they are just so adamant on the High Elf issue because they know that faction boundaries will be weakened sooner or later, and that High Elves would be redundant. If you can group up with Alliance players, communicate with them and visit their cities without getting killed, you don't need a new race for High Elves, you just need the option of choosing blue eyes.


While it is just a theory there is still a huge minority, I'd even argue a majority of Blood Elves (Mainly the ones on the RP servers) don't like being with the Horde. And I can only imagine that has been amplified in both numbers and opinions since BfA considering how evil the Horde is acting and you have no choice but to partake in the evil acts.
While true it would seem odd the a lot of people to leave everything, but I am sure a lot of people are willing to do it.

I see no other plausible reason why Blizzard wouldn't choose and still won't allow High Elves to the Alliance if it isn't for a reason like this, or a fear that something like this could be possible over what is basically !@#-pull. Void Elves just seem like a compromise to solve this issue, to somewhat give the hardcore people who want High Elves a slightly changed version of them.
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30/10/2018 18:56Posted by Frozengrip
On a different part I do think the reason the Alliance got Void Elves instead of High Elves is because of the mass exidous of people who would switch sides because of it. 40% of the Horde's character pop' is Blood Elves and if only 10% of them change it would still be a 8% change in population which could cause havoc. That is why I don't think they will become a allied race any time soon unless there is something on the Horde side to balance it out.


I think it would be fine. If this:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/races

is sort of correct a 8% change would be great. But to be sure they could give Horde the Mok'nathal (Ogres, are too big) and have Rexxar lead them. That'll make a lot of players !@#$ their pants.
It's preposterous that High Elves aren't playable yet.
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Thanks you for the replie Moridunum, Frozenshadow and Cyndane.
30/10/2018 21:26Posted by Wimbert

I'm still not buying that one. I really don't see why people would change faction, leaving ther ingame friends behind, to play... using the same model they are already playing. I'd rather think that a new High Elf race would be more interesting for people who already have social circles within the Alliance.

Thank you Wimbert, that's exactly how I feel.

30/10/2018 20:29Posted by KĂ©mentari
I am playing with the both factions from years .. to know the both sides of the story .
The whole event with Sylvanas and Teldrassil was too much for me. Invading or overtaking Teldrassil is acceptable for me. Killing the Night elves and rising them again too. But burning the World Tree with civilians and innocent... Well that’s not for me . I know it’s only a game and not a real story . I would never follow such a story and I don’t want to be part of it ..

Thank you KĂ©mentari. I can understand that, since i feel the same.
See my case I was never, invested very much on WoW lore.
I saw it as a very side aspect of the game.
Yet here I am in BfA in story forums, instead of playing.

Quoted from: Theronarum.
However, things start to change with Warlords of Draenor. Instead of giving the players the choice of experiencing the story (which was, before WoD, reading the quests), the players would be confronted by it. The introduction questline is a great example of that, whenever you see a new clan leader, the game dramatically pauses and the name of the character appears on the screen. With a lot of cinematics, voice-acted dialogues, and a rather lineair story easily accessible for the general players, everyone would have an idea what the story was about. The same goes for Legion and the current expansion.

To draw a conclusion from this, one that might be incorrect and better be called a 'consideration', this was a long way of saying that the more lore is presented to the players, the greater the importance of it will be. A trend that is only increasing.

I think this is the reason why i am here and to be honest I hate it.
I just wish, we could go back to the vanilla story telling, which means no cinematics and please: no drama, this isn't Game of Thrones.
30/10/2018 19:01Posted by Fauffi
WoW's really not lore driven. Lore is the annoying kid kicking on the driver's back seat at best.

A very obnoxious kid ...

My personal opinion: Sylvanas doesn't represent the hole Horde.
Forsaken, Goblins, some parts of the Orc society perhaps, yes.
Tauren, Pandaren, Blood elfs and Vol'Jin trolls ? I don't think so.
When I played between Oct 2005/June 2007, I alwas saw her, as that litle dark void that the Horde had to have, because chaotic players need somewhere to be and the Alliance doesn't fit that role.
When I read posts, praising the Burning of Teldrassil and Blood Elfs avatar and say "For the Horde, that's what we are". It makes me sick.
I have limited knowledge of lore, but I don't think it's in the Blood elf culture, invading other's people land and burn civilians ...

Had I more time in real life, to play and I would play both factions.
Unfortunately I can realisticaly play one toon and one faction at the moment.
I am just curious if Blizzard wants to turn the Horde definitly in the evil faction of Azeroth or as Wimbert would say:
30/10/2018 21:26Posted by Wimbert
I'm still hoping that they are just so adamant on the High Elf issue because they know that faction boundaries will be weakened sooner or later, and that High Elves would be redundant. If you can group up with Alliance players, communicate with them and visit their cities without getting killed, you don't need a new race for High Elves, you just need the option of choosing blue eyes.

I loved Legion expansion and how the Horde cooperated with the Alliance for the greater good of Azeroth.

Patch 8.1. will bring Saurfang rebelion and I don't think the "Old Soldier" cinematic, shows that the Horde is ok with Sylvanas dark rule.
Blizzard opened a pandora box with Burning of Teldrassil for the sake of drama.
How they will calm the Night elf community now ?
As Moridunum already said, I think they wrote themselfs on the corner this time.

Sometime I just wish my character would wake up, on the coasts of Broken Shore and realized it was all a nightmare.

Edit:
Staying on topic: the reason I made this post was because I thought maybe Blizzard used the lore as tool that could balance the communities of the Horde and the Alliance.
But it turned out not to be that way.

Thanks you for your attention.
Cheers.
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30/10/2018 22:46Posted by Cyndane
I think it would be fine. If this:

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/races

is sort of correct a 8% change would be great. But to be sure they could give Horde the Mok'nathal (Ogres, are too big) and have Rexxar lead them. That'll make a lot of players !@#$ their pants.
It's preposterous that High Elves aren't playable yet.


Perhaps, there is only one real way to find out afterall and that is releasing them. Altho' I don't know what way they would release them. Becoming a extension of the Void Elves customization or an entirely new race. Or that they all become Void Elves which I guess would be funny to see the utter madness what would ensue of the forums xd.
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30/10/2018 22:08Posted by Frozenshadow
While it is just a theory there is still a huge minority, I'd even argue a majority of Blood Elves (Mainly the ones on the RP servers) don't like being with the Horde.


I'd kind of argue against that, as someone on kind of -the- RP Server. That's not meant to sound arrogant, I just mean in terms of RP'ers, most are on AD. Most of the people playing Blood Elves are actually pretty cool with playing Blood Elves. They enjoy them because of the moral dichotomy of being -in- the Horde. I mean that's what appealed to me in the first place, Blizzard doing the interesting thing of making Elves much more similar to the Aos Sidhe, Tuatha de Danaan and Alfar of our real world mythologies. As in Elves -not- being tacked on to Humans and Dwarves as the 'Good Guys', but instead these very long lived, grudge bearing, cruel and at times petty, Species.

I love it. I love playing a character who is basically a Good person, but in service of a very bad cause, and the ways he tries to justify his allegiance to himself, if no one else. I just don't think the character would have the same 'ooomph' if they were Alliance and had squeaky clean morality. It is much more fun as a roleplay concept, and one that comes up frequently in our events, to the frustration of his Flight Lieutenant, Brigante very much regards himself as 'A Good man'. It is becoming harder and harder for him to reconcile this with the Horde's actions, but he is still a Patriot, and will serve the legal authority of his Nation. Wherever Lor'themar goes, there goes Brigante.

So to me, the Lore is very important. Gameplay is secondary. When Void Elves were released we already got rid of the people who wanted to play Elves in the Alliance, That's your base of High Elf players there. nothing will change, just less Void Elves, more High Elves, the people who stuck with the story for Lore, will still be playing on Blood Elves.

Lore is a vital and interesting part of the game, if you're not interested in the story, then why not go play a MOBA? If the game is more than pixels to you, then yes, the Lore is important.

Some people may see the direction the writers are driving the Horde into as incompatible, Me, I personally look at it as a challenge. "How on earth can a 'Good Man' justify serving this army"

That's what makes it fun.
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30/10/2018 18:56Posted by Frozengrip
The Alliance top-down system for raiding is being toxic and is poisoning the scene because of it


Is it really that toxic? oO
I had no idea.
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I, for one, am interested pretty much only in the story, in the lore.

My races' choices are dictated by this factor alone. I never bothered checking the racials, end game content, which faction has it easier, which race is the best at what.

I like Draenei lore so I play a Draenei. Everything else is secondary or doesn't matter to me at all.

But keep in mind that I am as casual as one can be. I once entered Uldir on LFR and never even finished it, because raiding takes so much time.
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31/10/2018 03:14Posted by Bazherak
Anyway, as others have said, things like lore or story are largely unimportant in the grand scheme of things in WoW. You could have the Alliance win every battle and have all the story focus and whatnot and that would make lore savvy Horde players outright quit rather than switch to the Alliance

You just read my mind.
Very insightful on your part, I congratulate you.

31/10/2018 03:14Posted by Bazherak
Just my two cents, and yeah, my sincerest apologies for the wall of text.

No need to apologize, I had a nice time reading your post.
I hope more people get to read this.
Curious case, I don't read books about WoW lore, but I have a great time reading posts in story forums.

31/10/2018 01:30Posted by Brigante
I just don't think the character would have the same 'ooomph' if they were Alliance and had squeaky clean morality.

That's my case right there, I have a Human warrior that i have been tried to level from 111 for two weeks now and she's only 113 now ...

31/10/2018 01:30Posted by Brigante
Lore is a vital and interesting part of the game, if you're not interested in the story, then why not go play a MOBA? If the game is more than pixels to you, then yes, the Lore is important.

I tried League of Legends and I missed:
-Character progression;
-Character customization;
-Character bakground (I am not a RP player, but my character is important if i can't play inside character, i can't play her.)
One of the best moments I had was while I was unsbscribed and just walked with my Blood Elf hunter level 20 in the forests of Ashenvale, reading quest texts, looking at trees, listening to the music, getting, immersed ,that's all cared for at the time.
I know it sounds boring, but sometimes I just whish a entire world like that.

31/10/2018 01:30Posted by Brigante
Some people may see the direction the writers are driving the Horde into as incompatible, Me, I personally look at it as a challenge. "How on earth can a 'Good Man' justify serving this army"

That's what makes it fun.

Thank you I will do that in future.

When Blizzard came with BfA and Burning of Teldrassil event, I just asked myslef:
Why ?
Doesn't the Horde have enouth sins to answer for already ?
Sylvanas wants to drag us to that dark void, she's going after she dies ?
If not it sures like so.
Does Blizzard wants to turn the Horde on a evil faction ?

Maybe that's why I have been here, all this time.
Looking for anwers: where to go, what to do, what to play.
After all I enjoy WoW.
But If I can't feel immersed is a very unpleasent experience.

Edit: Thank you for your replies Halasibel and Edgyjojomeme.

Sorry for going off topic.
My conclusion is:
A racial change on one faction, making her the best choice for PVE and PvP, would do far more for player balance, than changing the lore, after all it seems the majority of players only care for competitive gaming.
If Blizzard would changed Alliance racials to be, the best in game, Method guild, Mithic/Raids guilds would instantly change to the Alliance, to get world first and achievements on the next raid tier.
I can see why Blizzard doesn't want to get rid of racials, in the end of the day, this is a very important tool for them, just my opinion.

P.s. Thank you to everyone, that participated on my 3 topics, these days.
I will come back for future reference.
Sometimes I do admit that I should post, on general forums for certain topics, but I find the Story community to be the more constructive ones.

Cheers.
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31/10/2018 08:50Posted by Aster
Sylvanas wants to drag us to that dark void she's going after she dies ?
If not it sures like so.


Sylvanas wants to never go to that dark void. For that she needs to ensure Horde survival. Just read good war, it was explained simple enough.

In short - fight now, before both sides get nuclear weapon and blast the world to pieces
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Rule of Cool

Cool classes
Cool races
Cool story/lore

How each weight and how they combine change on player to player.
Change one, you'll have some people who change their class/race.
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31/10/2018 01:34Posted by Xiaopaw
Is it really that toxic? oO
I had no idea.


I may be slightly over exaggerating it, for now at least. You only really feel it if you are in the Mythic scene, but the fear stems from the fact that it is slowly changing. With the losing of Subs' as well like every expansion has, the continued exodus of players to the Horde it will slowly change before it'll become to late, like global warming xd.

Probably the best video I can find on the subject, even if I disagree with his solutions :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw3oSzxc5tU