Can shadow counter arcane magic lore-wise?

Argent Dawn
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I’ve been running into some OOC conflicts about usage of magic in RP here and there, decided to get an outside opinion on the subject. Although everyone probably got a personal view on this, it would be cool to have some common ground among RP community to refer to in future cases!

Usually this seems to become a problem whenever I’m roleplaying on my rogue or priest with arcane users. Most people are reasonable to not play their chars as all-powerful just because they are mages, warlocks or magic users in general. I appreciate it that way! But there are some issues where I’ve been needing to constantly draw boundaries on how much I’ll allow their abilities affect these chars, or any type of char which doesn’t have “warded against X and Y” on their TRP.

Shadow, as a milder form of void, would impart negative emotion, cause confusion, operate on survival logic etc… But it can also be used to shroud and conceal stuff, even if differently as arcanists use illusions etc… That’s the picture I’ve been getting over the years. Rogues even have Cloak of Shadows which prevents magic (traps included) affecting them for a few seconds, which also supports my picture that shadow can counter arcane to some extent. Shadow priests can distort minds, fade and become formless for some time, so even if they couldn’t hide as efficiently in physical plane, they could do such spiritually and even send back hallucinations if necessary?

I’ve had some occasions when magic practioners readily seem to think they can see through stealth because they’re magic practioners (yes, mages, not DHs with the sight!), or that they can track down my chars with divination/scrying without giving much attention to whether my chars can counter that or not… especially when they weren’t holding anything with tracking runes on them, when it would’ve made sense.
Most reasonable players either ask OOC or back off and adjust when confronted about this, but there are those types, who don’t take it well when they’re OOCly asked to respect lore of my chars. Worst end of it of course, is arguing whether something is realistic (in fantasy world) instead of focusing on RP, or just the rare type “this spell can’t realistically be countered by you”.

And yes, arcane magic is powerful, thus mages are powerful too. Basically they have a “solution for everything”, but it shouldn’t be a reason to railroad RP outcomes on non-magical chars or come telling it’s “unrealistic” (in a fantasy world!) to counter some of their skills. Such skills to overwhelm a shadow user would be more realistic if coming from an ancient highborne, nightborne or an older mage of any race with lots of life experience, but when it comes from apprentices and young chars, it’s a different story… unless their TRP inclines they’re child geniuses?

Eh, got a bit messy. My question in short, am I holding a mistaken view of capacity of shadow magic, or is it lore-wise reasonable to counter arcane-based stuff with it sometimes?

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You’re totally in the green here, at least from what you’ve written. The issue is with these mage RPers.

While stereotypically DH and DK are known as the RP2win classes, there are honestly few worse offenders than mages, because they think the versatility of their toolkit means they can just be a master at every single aspect of it, to the point where I’ve seen people in a mage RP discord lament about how they have to ‘tone down’ their character around others because any decent mage is supposedly on the level of a demigod.

I wouldn’t worry too much about these types.

(Obligatory Not All Mages)

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I think that is a common headcanon, since chronicles shadow and void are the same. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Rogues play their stealh differently, some use shadow magic to become invisible and I’ve always assumed it’s because the invisibility the magic is unable to get you because how do you fire a firebolt at someone you can’t see? Never heard of that shadow would neutralize arcane. It used to be fel - arcane and void/shadow - light, not sure if that still applies.

Yes, but ofc it’s still boring if they win all the fights, it’s a reason to why I’ve been hesitant to RP for example this mage, but if the player is reasonable there’s still plenty of ways to go around it. The mage is focusing on a spell? Try to interrupt by throwing something, maybe the mage then puts up a barrier but that would mean they had to cancel the other spell. Also I imagine rogues are faster physically so even if a mage could counter most attacks they might not be fast enough to notice the rogue, especially if they use magic and can do a shadowstep IC :wink: In the end it’s a give and take situation

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A swift boot to the face can counter arcane magic, so I don’t see why a cosmic force would have trouble.

Edit: obligatory ‘this is not a serious answer’. Please don’t write me an essay on the nuances of interrupting vs.counterspelling :frowning:

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Yeah but then blizz said that chronicles are actually just the records kept by some titan alligned whatever so an inaccurate view of Void is to be expected, truly.

People can take it both ways, ultimately the terms still serve to make a distinction in just how the cosmic force is used, even if you do maintain chronicle as objective truths.

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If they’re the same then why is Voidform stronger than Shadowform? Why they separate in the first place? Clearly something’s up there.

As for the main topic, if mages were so all powerful then Medivh wouldn’t have gotten stabbed to death.

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that is correct (which is dumb imo)

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Here’s your answer - it’s generally not worth it to bother with people who use every technicality in the book to “win” the encounter, no matter the class/magic type.

I think any type of magic can counter any other, it’s more about power of the particular wielder, and not some elemental cosmic rock-paper-scissors (which is just asking for further trouble when the opponent immediately whips out 3 other magical elements because they REALLY don’t want to hand you the W).

I enjoy RPing a scary powerful mage with all the ridiculous versatility, but honestly, the most rewarding part to me is hinting to the opponent your flaws and weak spots in your defense, so they can feel cool about devising a way to take you down.

Not All Mages But Definitely This One :point_left:

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We are told so, but that’s not shown. As Elenthas notes, Void-based attacks are depicted as stronger than shadow, making the headcanon seemingly correct.

The distinction in chronicles is vague and could still be correct, much like ice and water are always frost magic but different in shape and form (a note: the Chronicles aren’t written BY the titans, but with the titans’ pov in mind, meaning that it was just meant to adress that bit of cosmology and didn’t adress stuff like Elune, the Shadowlands etc).

I think the OP is correct. Any magic can counter another. Shadow can counter arcane as arcane can counter shadow (some forms of magic are more effective than others: fel does good against arcane). But some things in the main thread strike me as weird, like:

This way of writing down the problem strikes me as weird. It’s like you have loads of personal spells and “lore” that prevents this and that.
But overall your point is correct yeah.

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Shadow should be able to counter arcane, especially when it’s using it to go invisible. The only cases I’ve seen where mages have been able to uncloak someone using shadow magic to remain stealthed is in Suramar and even then it’s a pulse of arcane energy that dispells any magical concealments.

I used to do a lot of mage role play and it was very… Interesting, so to speak. A lot of mage RPers see magic as an opportunity to play an intensely powerful character or at least one who can easily disassemble a single persons plans because ‘I’m smarter than you’.

Coming from a warlock whose weakness is literally not having his demon out leaving him with very few tricks and having serious trouble protecting himself when someone manages to reach him in melee range- I would try to avoid trying to do conflict RP with all powerful mages who have no weaknesses. If they completely counter a rogue or a shadow caster because ‘my magic is pure and cool’, let them live that power fantasy where nothing ever happens to them because they’re so powerful no one bothers fighting them.

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Eh, it’s less about fights, more about a mage deciding to be able to track down a stealthy rogue or shadow priest with their scrying/divination abilities without any effort or backlash accepted. Chars which out of all my chars would go undetected if they wanted to, I mean I’d accept it on hunter or druid which also can be sneaky and stealthy, but don’t have shadows to conceal or protect them as much from arcane. They’d probably go for warding or enchantment in case they needed it!

Give and take, or meeting in the middle, is the ideal. But arguments are common when the ideal doesn’t happen. I often let people to play my chars down a bit situationally but there’s always that someone who won’t accept anything happen to their char as consequence, or even respect competence of non-magical chars.

Neutralising and weakening effects of are different things.

Most good mage roleplayers I’ve met at least acknowledge it takes years if not even a lifetime to master a single branch of Arcane magic (hence mages often specialise on something after learning the basics), but certainly not that a teen or young adult would be as skilled as an adult, unless we compare ie. human adult and teen elf (or draenei?).

writes an invisible essay, very serious obviously

Easier said than done sometimes. When you’re part of a group or guild where someone suddenly starts godmoding on you. For a bystander it may seem ok, especially if they don’t witness it as much, but as a target it can be annoying over time. I’ve left multiple groups for solely being exhausted of having to argue about it rather than enjoying that give-and-take RP. Currently I’m good, but still on guard when it would happen next.

Edit:

Couldn’t keep track of all replies, but good points this far! Didn’t mean as “Pokemon type efficiency chart” obviously, but more like how, for example, shadow could counter arcane if necessary. Thanks for the replies!

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Generally Arcane is the most versatile and arguably less dangerous (to the wielder) type of magic out there - I personally treat it like your typical jack of all trades discipline although that borders head-cannon again.

All in all I feel like agreeing with previously made points in this thread, that it should be more dependent on the actual character’s power level more than some “Pokémon type efficiency system”. But both should play into this to a degree, not just one exclusively. I’d argue that Shadow is more about subtly influencing your opponents and Void is the same but on steroids, while the Arcane is straight forward spell casting. That’s my opinion anyways, WoW lore is wobbly and gap ridden at its best.

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these mature at the same rate.

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Humans would have shorter lifespan to learn tho. :wink:

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While that is technically true life prolonging means via magic are among the easiest achievable enhancements in WoW and often in general High Fantasy. Although I’d consider pure age the lamest concept for a powerful caster. It is obvious that you become more powerful the longer time you had to hone your skills, things become more interesting once you search for other means to justify your character’s skills.

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I don’t think lifespan matters a lot. Most human mages are depicted as quite powerful on their own, and usually as being able to rival ancient sorcerors like highborne themselves.

“I’m old therefore powerful” is a common trope in WoW, but the opposite isn’t ( “I’m young therefore average/weak”)

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The difference is typically in control/finesse. The way the RPG always used to sell it was that an elven mage could light a candle in a shed 50 yards away, a human mage could blow the shed up.

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That’s quite drastic. I personally don’t mind the core message. My headcanon is that humans’ magic looks more pragmatic than that of an elf, where magic has integrated deep within their culture, and has become part of their ordinary life.

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What? :joy: way to make things more confusing

Also true and good points

This seems based of the assumption that shadow>arcane, if it’s a mage who’s really good at scrying/divination school, why wouldn’t they be able to see a rogue using shadow magic to conceal themselves? To state that you have chars that would go undetected if they wanted to seem to me on the same lvl as a mage never being able to fail a detection spell, then none of you wants to compromise?

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I mean in the end most magic combat in WoW seem to just boil down to two energy beams trying to overtake each other these days.

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