Can't put decent title because I will spoil next patch

Lore Story
21

Forsaken, and it not only belongs to the Forsaken. The Argent Crusade and Scarlet Crusade where two organisations formed by surviving Lordaeroni and there were/are surviving pockets of Lordaeroni that are aligned to the Alliance (mostly until the Forsaken promptly wiped them out like a Scourge 2.0).

False, and unconfirmed. Besides there are Forsaken from Gnomeregan, Dalaran, Quel’thalas and even Stormwind so no, Forsaken doesn’t automaticly mean Lordaeroni and it doesn’t mean they lived in Lordaeron before the Scourge.

Unconfirmed but heavily hinted at. Also, you can not really blame humanity for it, especially since they just survived a zombie apocalypse and then those (in the eyes of humanity) same zombies turn around and wanna do diplomacy?

He was a noble of Lordaeron and its highest ranking surviving military leader. It’s a 100% fact that he is from Lordaeron. What source were you using?

As was the agreement made between Garithos and Sylvanas.

Saying a demon did nothing wrong because he killed an arrogant man… alright then.

I am quite confident that Garithos would’ve tried something against the displaced Forsaken somewhere down the line, hence why Sylvanas and the Forsaken had no other choice.

I honestly want for the night elves to keep to their vengeance stick, for the Alliance to start a “Light” crusade against the unbelievers to try and (forcibly) convert non-Light races to the Light and try and create everlasting peace taht way.

Basicly, they radicalise while trying to create world wide peace.

She didn’t enslave a dreadlord, she beat him, thought she’d blackmailed him into subservience and was promptly betrayed when her plague plan at the Wrathgate backfired on her. Nearly lost the Undercity to the Alliance too.

Sylvanas’ was a credible, background, asset. The moment she was put into the spotlight her character started to be unraveled because they couldn’t let her get away with the semi-evil/morally grey shenanigens she did when just a mere faction leader.

Also, the moment she left the Forsaken, they became more human, meaning her presence was what kept the Forsaken “evil”.

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22

You mean the guy i replied to, that went straight into decrying the opening post, which was simply about lamenting the narrative loss the Forsaken theme had with the current development Sylvanas was given?

Your stance could’ve had some merit if it weren’t for the above. Or the fact that nowadays, the majority of the posts regarding Sylvanas are populated by guys on a blue background insisting or excusing on how Blizzard should double on this character iteration regarding her. While dismissing any/all opposition towards it as “simping” (or a similar terminology).

This is quite rich to be honest.

“The Forsaken are getting the interesting story bits!! I want Blizzard to ruin their story!!”.

Sorry if you don’t like the development given to your favoured race. But the solution to bad storytelling doesn’t go through ruining it for somebody else.

If you don’t like Anduin’s businesses with the Monkey King, and would rather focus on the Purge of Dalaran. Or if you are tired of being the good-two shoes token hero, go ask for better stories surrounding it (as the Forsaken and Orc players are demanding after how the story mistreatead their race).

Trying to automatically ruin it for someone isn’t exactly what i would call a healthy approach. And speaks volumes about you (not in exactly a good way btw).

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23

They were human enough even under her.

They seem more human now (after BFA), because Blizzard took the extra steps to dehumanise them while they ramped Sylvanas evilness.

Turning a fairly free faction, that valued their past, and took care of their own, into a dystopian 1984 sort of society with a mad ruler that wanted all dead for the sake of Death Satan, is an easy approach to have introduced a “newfound” concept of free-will under the Chandelier Puppet.

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I was gonna reply seriously but Zarao, my dude, you are literally NEFPA posting right now.

Sylvanas has been the narrative focus for over 4 years and two expansions now at the expense of almost everything else, but according to you it doesn’t count because it isn’t the right kind of attention… Like holy molly, this is exactly like the NEFPAs…

Alright, peace out folks, this blue background avatar checks out.

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25

Nothing will happen to her as nothing happened to your Ice witch or the dalaran butcher.

Nope, Jaina betrayed everyone around her.
Sylvanas was betrayed by everyone around her since the classic clique trio since MoP pushed in to help the alliance that was bent down in BFA.

Your view is highly biased.

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26

Oh, a Sylvanas thread. Good times. Have fun.

I’ll stick to my whimsical and futile dream that we will get rid of her in 9.1, and then move on to the whimsical dream that we will get rid of her by the end of the addon.

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27

This place could have been more.

It went down really fast.

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A dreadlord, an agent of the burning legion, enemy of all living being, a master of chaos and deception, the embodiment of terror on Azeroth. Please…

As cool as a mass murderer dictator can be, sure. She has nice armor and aaaaa… yeah, she is cool, indeed.

Doesn’t make any sense about her (lack of) morality.

So solid, that she ordered the killing of her own soldiers at the siege of Lordareon and actually said, that “the horde is nothing”. To be honest: I can agree with this statement, but she was the leader and protector of those people, wasn’t she?

Not my butt, but mostly yours. You are betrayed, not me, she wasn’t my warchief, sorry. Horde was always enemy for me.

Actually, the dreadlord used her for the purpose of the burning legion.

I don’t have any Ice witch, sorry. Don’t take it personally please, we are discussing about Sylvanas’s fate and (im)possible redemtion.

I wrote exact facts from the lore in 11 points and stated, that she literally violated every single moral values of both facions and all living things. Can you please explain me, where my arguments were biased?

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I’d honestly be hard-pressed to find 4 different instances where the character became a relevant/active narrative agent par on Jaina, Anduin or Thrall, for the last 15 years, but to each their own.

And regarding whether her presence “counts” or not, i’ll repeat that i’ll wait for the other boot to drop, and see how some of this public reacts when the story treats other characters similarly.

I still maintain that an entire expansion that thoroughly aims at distancing her from the faction, and condemns the traits that they had sported up until then (the ones that created certain degree of appeal for people) to the point the entire faction is left as a carcass of its former self, certainly isn’t the sort of development i’d call sufficient or “enough”, no.

It’s one thing to lean on tragedy as a source of narrative development. But this is basically like saying Trolls had lots of lore because we raided a different tribe each expansion.

30

Ofcourse, I’m just rolling with the ridiculousness of the whole thing. I dislike what they did with Sylvanas and in extent the Forsaken as a race. I don’t care about Sylvanas anymore because the writers have ruined her. I have no hope for Sylvanas to want to come back and even be wanted back inside the Horde. I’m not cuckoo, I’m only a little weird.

Well I never expected her to become warchief in the first place, much less accept the title!
Yes, she is evil, she has done horrible things, but they were fun, bite-sized evils in a fantasy game. And plenty of ‘good’ races for the players that don’t want to be evil.
I could never condone her behaviour in the real world, but we’re talking about a game here and there was no need to expand her evilness.

I skimmed mostly over the other replies, seems like an ok discussion but I’m just too tired to really concentrate and respond. Working overtime currently, will see how I feel tomorrow evening.

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This is world of WARcraft.
There is war here and no violation.

But i assume your faction destroying UC + invading DazarAlor+killing the king was OK because you did it right?

Thats why you are biased.
Dont try to come with mambo wambo excuses that “x was justified cuz of z” i can do that myself all day long.

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32

If you can’t make a distinction between liking a fictional character and condoning its actions and morals I can’t do anything for you m8. None of what I said concerns morals

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33

well no, because he’s pointing out the fact that sylvanas loyalists were always going to get zilch from their “choice” and the Token Evil Teammate Forsaken don’t make sense in the new engoodened Horde. this has been coming down the pipe for years, you can’t pretend it’s an unforseeable blindside.

that’s a bizarre reading of what i said, and it only holds if you accept that the Forsaken’s new direction “ruins” them, which it doesn’t.

the Token Evil Teammate crap has gotten old. they need some development that doesn’t involve them being the bad guys for a change, especially since Blackhand’s legacy has been bleached out of the Horde who are gearing up to become the new Good Guy Faction. can’t have furtive Blight-throwing farmer-killers in the new Good Horde. makes no sense.

34

Sylvanas destroyed Undercity, the Alliance invaded it.

Only because the prideful, savage king of Zandalar refused to accept the reality of his situation, unlike the noble Genn Greymane, who was willing to evacuate his people when his situation became untaneble.

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35

You need to re-watch the cinematic.
The alliance sieges and jainas pink unicorn spaceship destroyed it and sylvanas masterfully blighted it to make it useless for you. After you destroyed it.

You expected the king to surrender to your savages?
Listen to his speech.

Therefore by your logic, sylvanas burned the tree because you did not surrender the azerite to her. If you want to talk about logic, its fine but if you throw silly excuses i can do the same.

Alliance…Always justify their crimes while HORDE BAD when your ego got shattered in BFA
You guys never stop to amuse us :slight_smile:

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36

Still not a racional reason here, except your assumption about my supposed justification. This topic is still about Sylvanas’s story curve and the possible fate of her. I wrote facts about her and tried to logically conclude the coming lore, yet you still throw in illogical things like “my Ice witch”, and other alliance-related stuff. Not relevant to the current topic at all.

Same.

Such a shame, how you two try to obstruct the topic, because your ego can’t bear the fact, that your favourite character is not just a frustrated girl with unfortunate fate, but a criminal, a literal dictator and a mass murderer.

37

Actually, Jaina destroyed 1 wall, Sylvanas destroyed the rest.

Sylvanas destroyed the tree because Tyrande was willing to surrender the city, but Sylvanas did not give them the chance, unlike Anduin.

But your blind zealotry is showing, so this discussion wont be continued by me.

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38

So…

Basically this:

Ok :ok_hand:

Nice to have confirmation.

Anyway, as you tagged it…

…from the Sylvanas Hate Mob that can’t even accept that there are people that could find the appeal in the sort of theme that is being trashed alongside her character.

Oh really?

How else is someone supposed to read: I’m sick of the Forsaken having interesting roles in the lore?

And yeah, the current state of things, is certainly a direction that ruins their narrative.

Both on a meta (given their overall lack of remaining relevant agents that could push forth the story bits that appealed to its target audience, a.k.a. Forsaken players), and in-game perspective (introducing forced iterations that hold little logic to the overall development of the characters and race involved).

But yeah, as i said, i’ll wait around for the time when/if Blizzard gives this sort of treatment to other races.

If the NEFPA crowd during BfA, or the threads like these that already pop here and there…

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/please-dont-give-turalyon-the-villain-bat/
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/please-don%E2%80%99t-hit-velen-with-the-edgy-bat-next-expansion/927643
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/dont-turn-turalyon-into-a-villain/181405

…are of any indication, i’m already counting on the Crap-Storm that will ensue.

Expecting a few of the posters around here to contribute to it in fact.

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You surprised i assumed it?
Look at this:

In other words by this person’s logic, if we invade tomorrow stormwind and demand everyone to surrender (they will not for sure) we have the right to butcher them :rofl:

Absolutely relevant, because when you have a right to discuss Sylvanas fate, i get the same rights about your faction. Right?

Again, look at the cinematic.
The most damage was done by alliance sieges, jaina’s ship 1 wall yes.

Sylvanas BLIGHTED the city, she did not destroy it.

Imagine you justifying your factions crimes are not a zealot and everything is FINE while… I am one.

Please grow up my friend :slight_smile:
Im pretty sure you have a shiny and non-zealotry fused excuse for jaina that butchered un-armed civilians too right? :rofl:

40

Yes. If you invade and Regent-Lord Turalyon refuses to surrender after you have given him the chance you are in your right to continue the battle until every soldier and their leader lays dead. But it seems you want to “butcher” the innocent civilians of Stormwind too, which shows the savageness you apparently love.

Atleast the Alliance (tried to) make distinction and spare civilian lives.

Except I am not justifying the Alliance’s actions.

Not at all, what Jaina did in Dalaran, while understandable, needs to be repaid. While probably not capable of bieng paid in blood as many people scream for (and I doubt even Lor’themar would want) she can make amends by sending a negotiated amount of gold to the families and resources to the High Home for a pre-negotiated amount of time.

See how I want for the Alliance and Horde to be treated the same? Unlike you, who wishes to do everything the savage way. I do hope you’re not such a blind zealous savage IRL and how you portray yourself on the forums is only an act,because of you are you should get professional help.

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