Changing M+ into 5-man raid

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Aundra-nordrassil

Its’ already competitive avoiding puddles, explosions, stack of necrotic, a grievous wound, and spawns of G’huun… An option to switch the timer off and not losing the key would be nice… then if you feel you want challenge yourself even more then switch it on and try upgrading it.

but you can just go in the dungeon and do it without paying attention to the time already.I dont get why we need special mode for it.

[Destruktio-stormreaver]

BfA dungeons have a lot more trash, nobody likes trash. It’s trash.

[Aundra-nordrassil (Aundra)]

because my key gets depleted if I don’t make it on time. And most likely my key will get depleted after one wipe because of leavers. I want to finish a necrotic instance for example and not rushing to the end with my heart pumping panic or having my key -1. I actually relate with my monk: Patience is a virtue and I can concentrate more when relaxed and in peace with myself.

[Saphiramoon-tarren-mill (Saphiramoon)]

@Anouk-defias-brotherhood

Remove the timer

Not a fan of the idea. The timer is what defines m+. M+ has its own set of rules, different from raids, and in all honesty I like it as it is. Who wants to do raids should do raids, who wants to do m+ has something different.

@Anouk-defias-brotherhood

• Remove dungeon keys
• Change the key socket into a terminal, where you can choose your difficulty for the week (every time you are able to finish a dungeon on a level, the terminal will allow you to do the next level, next week). Example: If I do freehold +5 and finish it, I can choose freehold +6 next week.

Just for finishing or finish it in time? What we have now is not very different, except that it downgrades one level and you propose to upgrade. Imo when you did not finish in time, it’s a sign you need to get better at the difficulty you failed, not one that you should go higher. You should go higher when you actually completed the objectives of the one you are on.

Also, if key didn’t exist and people could just choose any dungeon, some dungeons would never be run. Everybody would just be doing AD and Freehold.

@Anouk-defias-brotherhood

increase the overall difficulty, to make up for the removed timer.

The overall difficulty is increased when you upgrade your key. The timer and the difficulty are two different things and I like it like that.

@Anouk-defias-brotherhood

remove the weekly cache and change it into you being able to do every dungeon once a week.

Not a fan. If I want to raise my score for a particular dungeon, but I’m not sure how the affixes feel, I will do one of that dungeon on a level I already did and decide after to try for a higher key. What you propose removes that. Or maybe I want to help some friends. I really don’t see any good reason to impose more limitation on a system that works fine as far as I’m concerned.

The only thing I do find concerning atm in m+ is class imbalance - but that is not a problem of m+.

Not saying anything about loot, as I don’t care either way.

[Liära-wildhammer (Liära)]

I like the idea, if raids can be challenging without having timers for people to stress out so can be the dungeons. Not everyone enjoys in a go go go mentality, for the type of the people which does Blizzard should have kept the challenge mode dungeon runs.

[Ishayu-frostmane (Ishayu)]

@Anouk-defias-brotherhood

• make every boss drop his normal loot (including azerite pieces), scaled to the according difficulty.
• Make the lockout ID for the dungeon the same as in raids, so you can replace group members

I really like this.

One of the main effects of removing the timer, which I am in favour of by the way, is that healer mana is going to be the limiter of how long you can survive. Healer mana can be saved by CC’ing a lot more. Of course boss mechanics like enrages also become more important if you literally don’t have enough DPS.

Yes, class balance will continue to be an issue. Of that there is no doubt. I don’t think there’s a whole lot we can do about that.

Another interesting aspect of this, is that we can remove the concept of keystones, and just give weekly lockouts where items from the last boss drop loot from the entire dungeon’s loot table, but scaled up, meaning you can run the dungeons you need to get the loot you want. More ability to target loot, and more control. It also means we can cap the amount of items you can get per character to around 2-3 per week from M+, which will make it possible to balance M+ with raid loot more closely, and as a result make it more justifiable to throw out 385 items and the like.

I think it’d be a lot more fun than what we’ve got. I think M+ is fun only to the extent that it makes dungeon content relevant, which is great, but let’s not allow it to blind ourselves to potential improvements.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Liära-wildhammer

Not everyone enjoys in a go go go mentality

and not everyone enjoys pet battles - hence people who dont enjoy pet battles, dont do pet battles.

@Liära-wildhammer

for the type of the people which does Blizzard should have kept the challenge mode dungeon runs.

CM runs were replaced with M+, its exactly for the same group of people tho.

[Varkhaim-burning-legion]

@Bukachu-ravencrest

aside from that, the reason 10 man raids got removed is because its hard to balance classes for both 25 and 10 man, will apply to 5 man too.

???
Utter lie. We already have Mythic+ with some classes being much better than others. Argument “there can’t be both 10man and 25man cuz balance reasons” is the most made up argument ever created by human. It just requires more imagination from developers and gameplay/encounter designers - and from what we know: they don’t have that.

#Bli$$ard

[Gryen-draenor]

I did nothing in Legion but m+ and pvp still my 3rs fav exp after lk and mop

[Aundra-nordrassil (Aundra)]

TBC instances were challenging with no affixes nor timer. Blimey they still are during TW. Challenge could be also fun, not a race. why should I do a Mythic normal with no affixes to be relaxed and not trying something more difficult with affixes and no time and still being relaxed? yesterday we wiped a lot in TW WOTLK and what I did? leave and blame? No, joking about the mistakes and made the one who did buying a drink for everyone from my mount. I like having fun while doing challenged stuff as well.

[Saphiramoon-tarren-mill (Saphiramoon)]

Challenge modes became irrelevant after you got gold. Sure you could go for better timers, but the motivation was really low. M+ feels like a much better system.

[Saphiramoon-tarren-mill (Saphiramoon)]

They weren’t difficult for people in raid gear, which is what everybody has nowadays. Another part of the difficulty came from lack of tools for various classes - which nowadays everybody has. TBC dungeons would not be difficult nowadays.

[Liära-wildhammer (Liära)]

Pet battles don’t have anything to do with the dungeons. So this thread is not about that and stay on the topic. Fact is atm in the game only do exist challenging dungeons for the people who like rushing, for the ones which don’t there is nothing, and I have seen not only here but on the US forum to how there are a lot of such people.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Liära-wildhammer

Pet battles don’t have anything to do with the dungeons. So this thread is not about that and stay on the topic.

it is a topic. its called a compassion. both CM and M+ are designed for competitive environment where time’s a key - hence its for people who enjoy competition, and “hardcore” gameplay. I just wish they’d add some kind of reward for doing really high keys and I’d be motivated to do them.

@Liära-wildhammer

for the ones which don’t there is nothing

wrong.
there are normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, mythic dungeons, time-walking.

[Saphiramoon-tarren-mill (Saphiramoon)]

@Liära-wildhammer

Fact is atm in the game only do exist challenging dungeons for the people who like rushing, for the ones which don’t there is nothing,

You can ignore the timer. You get the same rewards, bar an upgraded key. In all honesty, there isn’t much extra you need to do to meet the timer - just play well and it will happen. When you get to a difficulty high enough to not meet the timer anymore you basically get exactly what you ask - difficult content, no timer. If you can do it, but not in time, it simply means it’s not difficult enough.

[Liära-wildhammer (Liära)]

Those are not challenging, but boring.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Liära-wildhammer

Those are not challenging

yeah if you want challange you do M+.
if you dont like timers, you do Mythic raids.

[Liära-wildhammer (Liära)]

Seems like your comprehension is lacking here, mythic + dungeons are designed with a timer in mind, when you enter them everyone just rush, and there are people which don’t like that but which still want to have fun in the game and the dungeons with challenging and fun mechanics.

[Bukachu-ravencrest]

@Liära-wildhammer

when you enter them everyone just rush, and there are people which don’t like that but which still want to have fun in the game and the dungeons with challenging and fun mechanics.

that’s why you do them with friends, or people with same mindset as yourself. there’re communities too out there who do runs just to do runs and ignore the timer.

[Aundra-nordrassil (Aundra)]

This is no Horde vs Alliance anymore Blizzard… It’s challenge vs fun, elitist vs casual, flying vs no flying. Gather 'round everybody, WarMode on, and get ready for battle. Wanna do Mythic + with timer? be my guest. Want to switch it off because your baby kept you awake all night or your boss overload you with extra work? then switch it off and have fun. Wanna fly? then fly… you don’t? well don’t press the space bar. Not everyone is committed to a game… besides… it’s in the name: a ‘game’. No wonder people leaves after couple of months… everything is set to be enjoyable by the committed players…