Changing M+ into 5-man raid

As you fail more and more, armor gets broken and some people do tend to leave. It happened to me few times in legion.

So, like raids then?

Then it means you are not good enough for that place and you need to become better before advancing to the next level. I finish plenty of dungeons outside the timer - because that’s how things go naturally: first you deal with the difficulty and fail the timer, then you improve and manage the difficulty with less mistakes and faster, which makes you get the timer and go to the next difficulty to rinse and repeat. There is nothing wrong with failing a timer, that is where the progress actually is. If you never fail it, then you are not doing challenging enough content.

Start of expansion bugs and still existing bugs has soured mythic plus for me. When you fail the timer due to bugs, it just makes you pissed off. There was nothing you did wrong, Blizzards lack of care to fix bugs is what messed your timer up. Like mobs going through wall with typhoon/ring of peace, bosses despawning as you’re fighting them, bosses using wrong abilities in wrong phase, mobs walking down under the floor and evading back to 100% hp, mobs teleporting the tank to them constantly.

My personal favorite so far is the shark boss in freehold, try to run the shark through the blood and then the blood debuff doesn’t fade from you when you leave the pool so you’re slow as hell and the shark just eats you alive.

But how do you deal with lost time depression or people cursing you for being bad player. We can try again but that’s another hour for nothing in the worst case. I don’t enjoy M+, I’m too nervous and stressful about screwing things up in the process, but there is nothing else to do, I’ve past normal mythic ilvl.
How to actually progress, without rushing and gogogoing, while also maintaining calm and fun?
In overwatch or hots I don’t play competitive games, as another option there are casual quickmatches and some various gamemodes, those too grant xp and gold for new heroes.

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Myself, with calm and conviction that it’s how things should go normally. At the moment I have completed most m+ on +10 on time and a few +11 out of the timer. This means I am getting better, and the next step will be to complete +11 in time, and start failing the timer on 12s. Completing the dungeon past the timer for me it’s just that intermediary step when you are better than the previous level of key but not quite good enough for the next.

People rage, especially young ones. Atm I want to get my score higher and one of my lower scores are from KR, where I only have a +9 in time recorded. I thought yesterday that I should go for a +10, but decided to join a +9 to see how I handle affixes. I joined a group, the tank was a paladin, and he had invited 2 dhs. Everything went fine until the Council boss, where the tank got one shot. One of the dhs started raging, but nobody else did. We wiped a 2nd time from the same reason, and I asked the tank if he would like a grip to help him with the kiting. Tanks said ā€œyes, pleaseā€, and I could tell he was made uncomfortable by the dude that kept yelling. We finished the run in time anyway. There’s always people like that, but there are also good people, that will take a wipe or two with a grain of salt.

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And that is my main issue on timed instances. with no timer people are more relaxed and tank is not pressed by pushing or people yelling. i tend to panic when under stress and pulling something i shouldn’t or doing some nasty stuff… Challenge for me is coping with hard content, not being rushed by a timer. i’m doing +6/+7 so PEOPLE ALWAYS LEAVE after one wipe, don’t tell me about to don’t care about timer. I’m always the last who leave the group no matter what because I’m committed on failures as well as progress. So what I should do? keep wasting my time by starting dungeons that will never be finished? :slight_smile:

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Timers are to be challenging , if they remove those they will defeat the purpose.

Main reason why they will not remove the timers is because they are not mandatory : u finish the dungeon in 7 hours u still get loot exactly like raiding .
Player to player advice , don’t stress for the timer if u don’t like it or specify to your party u don’t care about it .
The timer exists to push yourself and have a challenge . and feel satisfaction when u beat it .

Due to people repeating already made arguments, I have edited the OP accordingly.

I did :slight_smile: I started a group with no rush at all and no commitment to timer. After the timer went off, one of the player left. 2 bosses to finish. It was… Underrot or Waymanor I don’t remember. I have so many unfinished instances on my back I tend to forget them… And if every tank is thinking like me, no wonder we lack of tanks in this game. Tanks are really hard pressed. i did a +6 guild… went down smoothly +1. i did a +4 guild… beat the timer +3. Organised group with a leader telling me in Discord where to go and what to pull (even though I know how to do the instance) relaxes me and i look like a pro. When PUG I want to smash the timer to pieces along with my screen, my keyboard as well as the heads of the members of the group.
That’s the reason why I quit tanking last week. i thought it was the hard affixes, but I now know they’re not. It’s the pressure set up by timer and people.

I dunno. When I make my groups, I just put ā€œbe niceā€ in the description. I have very little abandoned runs - and not all of them are timed. I had a particular bad week a while ago - was the one with explosive and I think teeming. I started from a 10 key, we wiped to uncontrolled explosives, tank left. I did the resulting +9 in time, and from that group only the tank had to go, we got a new tank, went into the 10, wiped on an explosive, tank left. We said ā€œf…k itā€ and went to do my friend’s +10 key, and what do you know…tank left after a couple of wipes, most his fault for overpulling. I was ā€œyou gotta be kidding meā€ - and the random warrior we had in the party switched to tank and we proceeded to 4 man. We managed to clear all trash and another boss without issues, but we couldn’t cover the adds for the next boss (was underrot).

But that is my worst week in memory. The majority of times people finish the dungeon even if the timer is failed. But I play in +9-+10s - and people tend to have more patience, also a +10 finished is a sorted weekly, so people finish those regardless of timer most of the time. Guessing they abandon lower keys easily.

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Ah, here we have it ā€œyouā€. This seems like it is ā€œbetterā€ for you, I think many of your ideas are good for your style of play but not necessarily for the majority of the player base.

I don’t like the idea. The dungeon was created with a difficulty in mind and maybe the timers could be set a little more lose (so 2 wipes are not already set to miss the time), but where is the line between a reasonable amout of wipes and to many.

I do like the idea without keys and with a choosable difficulty based on what you already finished. However I would not lock it to one try per week (people that want to progress should be able to - maybe lock it to one drop per week and you can select if you want a loot run or not).

I like the idea however if you can run higher keys and more often, than currently (you can freely select the dungeon and don’t get downgrades), with one item per dungeon and week you would not get to many items, the progressing up to 370 would be slower but from 370 to 385 onwards, you would not be bound to pure luck like we currently are with M+ chests.

As I already wrote, I would like to keep the timer and switching one member would be a near guarantee to fail the timer, however I like the option to switch a member if someone has/wants to leave.
However I see an issue on the side of rewards or progress tracking. If you give no reward to the ones filling, there is no upside for them to fill and only friends/guild members will fill at all. If you give the full reward/progress to the higher entry levels, boosting is rather likely (kill everything except a few trash percentages and switch the player).
I don’t know how to solve the issue, so I would not mind if the one group/run would be kept.

Higher difficulty is in higher levels, so even if the timer gets removed, I don’t see a reason to make it more difficult, instead the reward structure should be pushed a little higher, if the timer would be removed.

And this, sir, defeats the design philosophy of dungeons and raiding. There is meant to be a fundamental difference, and Mythic+ is an ALTERNATIVE. It isn’t meant to feel like raiding.

Your idea is horrendous, sorry. It just goes against the very design nature of both of these elements.

How about this, as an alternative…
Make it so that the only way out of a group, instead of choice or majority verdict, is that if the timer expires & all in the Group meet their demise (no additional Durability cost).
At that point, the timer resets & the Group are allowed to go their separate ways or try again with the same Keystone.
The only way to progress the Keystone is to get a completed run…

Thoughts…?

And what is different than the current one?

Once the timer expires, the run auto ends and everyone ports back to the start… but no-on can RQ or get vote-kicked.

I think that’s worse lol, as we’ll never have weekly chest at the end if you keep failing :stuck_out_tongue:

Key never depletes/different Groups get tried, 'til you beat the timer… no-one is deemed to cheese any loot…

Have fun with that. I’ll go grab something to eat and sit AFK if the group sucks.

Well i whould not remove the keystone or the timer itself. Instead I whould rework the keystone to reflect a better sense of player agency.

I whould change the keystone to be a static item handed too you at the start of a season(or when you hit 120). If you right click a stone you whould be able to get a secondary screen with all dungeons listed. If you click a dungeon in the interface you whould see which difficulties are completed and at which times. Linking the stone to someone else whould also allow them to check the stone.

At the start any keystone whould only be able to choose a +2 difficulty but when you complete it on time; your keystone upgrades to allow you to do a +3 for that dungeon. If you join a +5 for that dungeon, +5 whould be flagged as complete, but you whould still have to complete; +3 and +4 to start your own key at +6.

Then i whould tie some rewards to the keystone itself. For an example; doing all the dungeons up to +5 whould allow you to gain pieces of a ā€œnormal challenge mode styleā€ transmog set. Doing all of them at +10 whould give a mount. Then just keep the rewards coming at different milestones, either for the individual dungeon or for completing all of the dungeons at certain levels. This whould allow mythic+ pushers to feel some uniqueness, either trought a hard to achive mount or transmog.

This whould fix some of the games critical issues: Mythic+ pushers feeling left out of the rewards for pushing further. Leavers trashing key ranks, since you whould just be able to replace and redo the same rank. Raiders just doing their +10 could also just choose to do them where they want too.

This whould also allow players to easier learn a dungeon since theres a bit of a carrot tied to progressing your own key rank by rank. It whould also in many ways remove the issues regarding rio scores, since rio can’t collect data(especially for lower keystones) accurately.

To prevent overfarming of +10’s for gear I’d instead just loot lock individual ranks. You can do all mythic +10’s once with loot, if you want more loot you just have to go do a rank 11 of that dungeon and so on.