26/10/2018 15:16Posted by ValaarNoone, just following the so funny meme26/10/2018 15:14Posted by Vaxir...
Depends who you are o_o
Oh 8( I like you then!
Oh 8( I like you then!
I am legally forced to26/10/2018 15:07Posted by ThurillionSo you agree with perroy
A claim I never made, I simply point out that what you post from the Chronicles is not in conflict with what Perroy stated26/10/2018 15:07Posted by Thurillionand believe that chronicle doesn't supersede the first two games when it comes to lore?
Yes I will26/10/2018 15:07Posted by ThurillionSure believe what you want then =)
26/10/2018 14:44Posted by PulloI always wanted to roleplay a character that believes in the old WC1 lore of a deity existing as a old aspect of the church. I don't think they ever expressly declared it non-canon.
A lot of things aren't declared expressly non-canon despite being made so by virtue of being either overwritten with other lore.
When Blizzard set out to write the story of how the Church of the Holy Light came to be, they notably left out the Judeo-Christian name-drops that defined the Church and it's mythos in WC1 and 2, and so the WC1 canon of them being single-deity God-worshippers (capital g) seems to no longer be a thing.
At best they'd have been worshipping the five probably-Naaru entities that reached out to Mereldar.
26/10/2018 15:07Posted by GaebrielThere's also references to 'paradise eternal' and 'the Light's golden halls', by the way. See for example the Crusader Bridenbrad quest from WOTLK.
This is paradise as promised by the Naaru, mind. And it does seem they are capable of granting some kind of soul-peace so their soul can't be put back into their body and make them undead.
I don't know where the golden halls bit comes from, but the quote from Bridenbrad's questline is this:
A'dal says: In life, Bridenbrad was the bearer of great deeds. Now, in passing, he shall taste only paradise.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Boon_of_A%27dal
26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionI said all uses of hell that people are posting in relation to the Christian hell is probably incorrect.
Nah, you said:
26/10/2018 15:07Posted by PerroyThe only angels and hell references are in the RTS games and ARE retconned by this.
Anyone can scroll up and check that. You made no reference to "the Christian hell" at all
I would argue that the place Sylvanas/Arthas go to in Edge of Night is pretty synonymous with the generic idea of Christian hell, though: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner#tab=6 (not sure if this is now non-canon because of Chronicles, please let me know)
26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionAnd not really, you are arguing that the first two RTS games are complete canon
They are considered a canon resource, yes - that is something you can confirm for yourself. Nothing in the Chronicles says that humanity never deified the Light / worshipped it rather than following it as a simple belief system and this is actually reflected (as I mentioned) in the actions of some human characters in World of Warcraft
26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionTribunal of ages for example got retconned in game and said to be that loken messed with its information. There are many instances of this in the books.
That is an in-universe explanation for information being wrong, isn't it? It doesn't mean that the Tribunal of Ages doesn't exist in WoW now
In the same sense the humans who deify the Light are wrong, but characters are sometimes wrong in their beliefs
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The word church should be enough to show there's an obvious connection between Christianity and the Church of the Holy Light. Among that, you have their titles which boil down to ranks often given out to Christian sects.
Oh, and the very obvious Christian architecture of churches in WoW.
Oh, and the very obvious Christian architecture of churches in WoW.
26/10/2018 14:52Posted by ThurillionStill there does not exist a hell in-game akin to Christian hell.
Just tell me something. The planets that the burning Legion manage to invade and the places they take over, y'know, with actual demons. They look like what exactly? Can't put my finger on it. Lakes of fire. Raining fire. Demons everywhere. Things being tormented.
Hmmm.
I would argue that the place Sylvanas/Arthas go to in Edge of Night is pretty synonymous with the generic idea of Christian hell
This is probably the Shadowlands, given it's a realm that the Val'kyr have power over.
Nothing in the Chronicles says that humanity never deified the Light / worshipped it rather than following it as a simple belief system and this is actually reflected (as I mentioned) in the actions of some human characters in World of Warcraft
It does strictly run counter to the Christian monotheism [as presented in WC1 and 2] though, since these deified beings came as a vision of five rather than one.
26/10/2018 15:32Posted by Perroy26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionI said all uses of hell that people are posting in relation to the Christian hell is probably incorrect.
Nah, you said:26/10/2018 15:07Posted by PerroyThe only angels and hell references are in the RTS games and ARE retconned by this.
Anyone can scroll up and check that. You made no reference to "the Christian hell" at all
I would argue that the place Sylvanas/Arthas go to in Edge of Night is pretty synonymous with the generic idea of Christian hell, though: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner#tab=6 (not sure if this is now non-canon because of Chronicles, please let me know)26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionAnd not really, you are arguing that the first two RTS games are complete canon
They are considered a canon resource, yes - that is something you can confirm for yourself. Nothing in the Chronicles says that humanity never deified the Light / worshipped it rather than following it as a simple belief system and this is actually reflected (as I mentioned) in the actions of some human characters in World of Warcraft26/10/2018 15:17Posted by ThurillionTribunal of ages for example got retconned in game and said to be that loken messed with its information. There are many instances of this in the books.
That is an in-universe explanation for information being wrong, isn't it? It doesn't mean that the Tribunal of Ages doesn't exist in WoW now
In the same sense the humans who deify the Light are wrong, but characters are sometimes wrong in their beliefs
Then I hold my hands up and say I worded that poorly then. I meant to say that the specific mentions in the RTS were retconned. Which they have and not just by chronicle. Warcraft 3 retconned some parts of the previous games. The book the last guardian retconned much of Warcraft 1. The book Tides of darkness retconned much of Warcraft 2, as did Beyond the Dark Portal. Wow itself retconned much of the original games. And then finally chronicle retcons it. To say what happens in those games supersedes what has been established over it in newer lore and even in chronicle is asburd.
And sylvanas does infact go to a very dark place in the Shadowlands.
... and so the WC1 canon of them being single-deity God-worshippers (capital g) seems to no longer be a thing.
That's my point, rather than it being declared non-canon it's simply just been left open, and going off the link you could well justify a Light priest who believes in a diety creator. You also have God referenced here and there in NPC quotes, so I think it's plausible.
Likewise, going off the RPG, you could simply claim it's old sect practice that was largely lost and forgotten during the Third War in character (Scourge destruction of archives, death of the old order etc).
I mean. why people DONT think that The Church of the Holy Light lore organisation ISN'T heavily influenced by Christianity is very odd to me, because it very obviously is. I haven't played the Warcraft series but have seen some things that over time Warcraft have steered away from some obvious iconography referring to Christianity, but there are still some obvious similarities.
That being said, it's not exactly like Christianity, the church of the holy light lore organisation is meant to be so much better than real life. Outwardly and to the public the Church of the Holy Light is very caring, very supportive of the people, a very much loved organisation, very void of corruption. Although we do know that inwardly two high ranking members of the church have turned out to be top dogs in the twilight's hammer cult. That being said, no-one of the public really knows about this.
The dodgy things that have been happening in OP's guild aren't supportive of what the Church of the Holy Light represents and to me has bent the lore to the point of breaking it. It's not a nice thing to witness and is something I avoid as much as possible. I don't expect it to change though, the arrogance and stubbornness is too damn high.
That being said, it's not exactly like Christianity, the church of the holy light lore organisation is meant to be so much better than real life. Outwardly and to the public the Church of the Holy Light is very caring, very supportive of the people, a very much loved organisation, very void of corruption. Although we do know that inwardly two high ranking members of the church have turned out to be top dogs in the twilight's hammer cult. That being said, no-one of the public really knows about this.
The dodgy things that have been happening in OP's guild aren't supportive of what the Church of the Holy Light represents and to me has bent the lore to the point of breaking it. It's not a nice thing to witness and is something I avoid as much as possible. I don't expect it to change though, the arrogance and stubbornness is too damn high.
26/10/2018 15:44Posted by Pullo... and so the WC1 canon of them being single-deity God-worshippers (capital g) seems to no longer be a thing.
That's my point, rather than it being declared non-canon it's simply just been left open, and going off the link you could well justify a Light priest who believes in a diety creator. You also have God referenced here and there in NPC quotes, so I think it's plausible.
Likewise, going off the RPG, you could simply claim it's old sect practice that was largely lost and forgotten during the Third War in character (Scourge destruction of archives, death of the old order etc).
Sure but again the point is they deviate from what has been established as canon via chronicle. They are free to rp the way they do as a sect or cult. But they rp as the ACTUAL church itself.
Who cares if they want to roleplay more Christian themes? So long as it doesn't directly contradict lore it's not much a problem.
You imply it was never tainted to begin with.26/10/2018 15:06Posted by VaxirI-is Duskwood officially tainted now?
26/10/2018 15:44Posted by Pullorather than it being declared non-canon it's simply just been left open
Sure, but every mention we've had of the church's faiths and doctrines after WC2 reference the Light either as an abstract entity (or a collection of them) like the Naaru, or a non-sentient power - and the latest Chronicles seems to lean on the pantheonic Naaru angle being their very origin.
I'm not aware of there being an enshrined creation myth preached by the Church of the Holy Light mentioned anywhere (even in WC1, actually), so maybe it is something of a theological blindspot in the lore - or maybe the Church just doesn't have a creation mythos.
Likewise, going off the RPG, you could simply claim it's old sect practice that was largely lost and forgotten during the Third War (Scourge destruction of archives, death of the old order etc).
The issue is Chronicles deals with both the very origin of their practices and the idea of it being a sect that sprung up later. No reference is made to monotheistic Light-worship (or any other kind of schism) in a book that also explains the Church of the Holy Light's operations during the times where WC1 and 2 took place, and where these references to God would probably be relevant. I could be wrong and have to read the novel through again looking for references, but I doubt it.
You're right that it'd be hard to rule out completely until an official statement is made, but I'm about as dubious on considering Christian-inspired monotheism in the Church of the Holy Light as canon as I would be a lot of concepts from the RPG books without further references.
26/10/2018 16:04Posted by RogmashaSure, but every mention we've had of the church's faiths and doctrines after WC2 reference the Light either as an abstract entity (or a collection of them) like the Naaru, or a non-sentient power - and the latest Chronicles seems to lean on the pantheonic Naaru angle being their very origin.
You can quite easily justify it being a Naaru or some higher being greater than the crystals themselves. God doesn't have to be Christian God.
In the RPG they mentioned a lot of old Light sect was destroyed in the Third War, and likely in the destruction of Stormwind too:
Many remaining paladins who served the Silver Hand and now make their new home in Kalimdor are attempting to form a new Church, but the going is slow. As the study of the Holy Light was more of a philosophical pursuit than a faith, the destroyed Church resembled a library instead of a house of worship. Its texts were destroyed along with the Church, many of them burned, most of them buried in thousands of pounds of rubble. What with the wars, settling a new Alliance stronghold and dealing with frequent skirmishes, the remaining scholars and priests have found little time to work on transcribing old information into new books for initiates. Most young followers of the Holy Light learn by experience at the heel of a more experienced person instead of in libraries surrounded by texts.
Some self-appointed sages are taking up the mantle of rewriting the pontifications on the Holy Light, but there is no regulation or overseer. There are fresh looks at old ideas, as well as old ideas copied word for word by diligent old priests with perfect memories. As one would expect, sometimes these scholars clash when someone realizes that the texts are beginning to contradict one another. There is tension within the church: Younger priests feel the Third War gave the Holy Light a chance to renew itself just as the Alliance was renewing itself on Kalimdor, while others demand to keep to old traditions.
Secular citizens care little for the debates but prefer their rituals to remain the same. With everything around them changing, faith represents one of the few constants.
Some claim that the Third War was the best thing that could have happened to the Church, and suggest that the Church take this opportunity to rebuild itself. They claimed that the Church had strayed from the path of the Three Virtues and needed to pare back down to essentials. According to these younger priests, their elders had lost touch with the Light and it was time to reclaim that holy communion.
It is said that the Church is finally organizing again and looking at all these texts for consistency and accuracy, but it's unknown if that's true. It is known that the Church is stronger than it's been in centuries. It's rebuilding, regaining ground, and speaking out against the Scourge and other evils
-- https://wow.gamepedia.com/Church_of_the_Holy_Light#In_the_RPG
I personally don't think it's stepping on any toes if you happen to go down that route.
26/10/2018 16:38Posted by PulloYou can quite easily justify it being a Naaru or some higher being greater than the crystals themselves. God doesn't have to be Christian God
No, but the capital g God is a direct reference to Christianity that doesn't seem to poke it's head out anywhere in lore after 2000.
26/10/2018 16:38Posted by PulloIn the RPG they mentioned a lot of old Light sect was destroyed in the Third War, and likely in the destruction of Stormwind too
And while parts of this is probably true, it also served at the time as a handy explanation for phasing out certain aspects of the old interpretation of the Light as Christanity's "soul of man", since at the time they weren't ready to give an explanation for the origin of light worship.
Here's a few choice quotes from the RPG book page Wowpedia is referencing:
Nobody really knows how the Church got its start. For that matter, no one knows when people first discovered the Holy Light â or were discovered by it â either. People started preaching about it at some point, explaining how
this great and benevolent force existed and sought out mortal spirits interested in helping others and protecting life in general.
We have that explanation now for how the Church got started now, but just as relevant:
The Holy Light is a strange philosophy (itâs really more a philosophy than a religion) because it doesnât involve reverence for a person or even a being
â the Light is more of a force, really, and honesty and good deeds are more important than money or wine or any other form of sacrifice. Thereâs also a lot of study and contemplation involved, particularly on how to make yourself a better person in order to commune with the Light more completely. I think they probably had libraries before they had churches, and the one simply grew out of the other.
So the RPG book itself also discusses how the current iteration-of-it's-day Church of the Holy Light doesn't take a deistic approach.
The leader of the "Holy Order of Northshire Clerics" during WC1 [which is where the references to archangels and God come from] is said to be Alonsus Faol, who makes no such references at all in his current iteration, or as his book representation in the Tides of Darkness novel taking place in WC2.
Edit: Indeed, here's a few quotes from Tides of War which seems to reference the Holy Light as a force rather than an entity.
I pray the Holy Light fills you with strength and purity, and that you find within it the joy and unity you need to survive and conquer. His hand rose in a benediction, and Lothar thought he saw a faint glow around the limb, a glow that spread to Khadgar and to him. He felt a sense of peace and serenity, and a surge of inexplicable happiness.
This second bit is a perspective from Turalyon in how he's been taught about the Holy Light.
The Holy Light, after all, resided in every living being, in every heart and soul. It was everywhere, the energy that bound all sentient beings together as one.
But you can still roleplay that angle if you want, it hasn't been refuted as non-canon. Neither do I see it as a problem if you wanted to roleplay a character under that aspect.
You best go ask loreology if you want more details on the God thing.
You best go ask loreology if you want more details on the God thing.
26/10/2018 17:05Posted by PulloBut you can still roleplay that angle if you want, it hasn't been refuted as non-canon.
You can, but basing it on what appears to be largely superseded throw-away lines from a manual written when Warcraft was still a spin-off Warhammer clone figuring out the kind of story it wanted to tell is going to be a hard sell.
Now can you play such a deistic sect? Yes! You could even make a new one as far as I'm concerned. I'm no opponent of that at all. I'd just warn against basing it off of a mythos that seems to have been phased out of the canon over time.
26/10/2018 17:05Posted by PulloYou best go ask loreology if you want more details on the God thing.
I would, but he hasn't been active on Twitter in a while. :(
26/10/2018 15:26Posted by RogmashaThis is paradise as promised by the Naaru, mind. And it does seem they are capable of granting some kind of soul-peace so their soul can't be put back into their body and make them undead.
I know, but if it's hinted at in the Chronicles that the naaru might have influenced the first human priests with their visions, wouldn't that mean that said naaru concept of afterlife is very old and likely ingrained into the human Church's dogma?
26/10/2018 17:20Posted by Gaebrielwouldn't that mean that said naaru concept of afterlife is very old and likely ingrained into the human Church's dogma?
Maybe? It could also be a general reference to being granted the peace of "death" rather than being doomed to a restless spirit/ghost. It's worth mentioning that it's a reference the Naaru makes to you [who could well not be a CotHL believer/Naaru worshipper], and not Bridenbrad.
I don't know that the CotHL specifically has a doctrine about the afterlife.
Warcraft in general has a kind of hard time figuring out what the afterlife looks like (or indeed if there is any), given the many different theologies they have to reconcile in one universe. Even the Shadowlands description has the caveat that it's the place where some creatures go when they die.
I believe in Bridenbrad's case, being exposed to whatever got him so sick is mentioned to also doom him to to becoming an undead.
Paradise could mean the same fate as the one you grant undead all over the Plaguelands; death and release from their state as Scourge slaves, or one you grant to many restless souls that're "soothed" in one way or another.