Class balance in m+ could indeed be better, but it’s also the mindset of the community. Most pugs want the best specs because they find that every non-meta spec is bad - even on lower keys.
Back to topic: For example, having a tank class which does insane cleave damage compared to all other tanks isn’t fair. Outlaw Rogue is THE Swiss Army knife, the allrounder in m+ and needs more tuning than a simple trait nerf.
“CLASS BALANCING HAVE NEVER BEEN WORSE”
Lol classic beta is up
At the high end minmaxing to the extreme it is noticable. The problem is the amount of content on youtube, twitch and logs that show this. Then players in random bgs and lfr moan that their dps is bad because they are undertuned lol. Actually pvp stats show that population wise over 1800 rating it is extremely well balanced.
It must be impossible to balance each spec for raid, dungeon, arena and bgs. I also prefer it if one spec is specialises in pvp and one dungeon etc. More rpg there.
Why do people keep saying that it’s not possible to make classes equally viable when we already had that in the past ?
Can someone explain, please ?
Did we tho ? I don’t remember ever reading about a “balanced” era of wow, and i’d even say nowadays it’s more a matter of players than classes.
Remember the unplayable 8.0 shamans ? Turn out they were only a few % weaker overall but no one wanted them in pug 'cuz “literally unplayable”. One patch later, their buff made them one of the strongest class and it was nerfed soon afterward.
All specs are playable in +10, that’s balanced enough imo. It’s more an issue of community and M+ system itself than one of class balance at this point.
You dont have any experience or data to back it up. You bring some anecdotal “evidence” of playing a non-fotm comp at 2.1 rio, and thats somehow supposed to indicate that class balance is fine?
edit: cant make links work. But just go to raider io website, look up all m+ runs. Sort by +20 keys, select tanks/healers/dps. Yes, clearly balanced ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
Like I said, nothing to do with class balance. People follow the meta, if a prot pala was 1% better than a prot warrior then the leaderboard would be chock full of only prot palas. Then people like you would be “OMG LOL prot warriors suck LOL, theres none in the top 200!”.
Such is the case of MDI, yes. Not nearly to the same extent for live, although it is obviously a factor. But according to your logic balance is fine, and the only reason we see 60% of healers being rdruids and 30% of dps being rogues is a misinformed bandwagon public?
Because if so, I’d argue your lack of experience is the deciding factor. Yes, you can easily do 18 keys with a random comp - even 21 keys, maybe 22. Possibly 23. What does it matter if its far easier doing it as a proper comp? People have this childrens logic of “anything is viable in high rating/keys/content, just l2p”. Then why is there 1 disc priest in the world who completed a 24 key, and there’s 70-100 rdruids? Did every single disc in the world except 1 get mistreated by lfg every single day of bfa - despite being perfectly viable?
I don’t disagree that balance can always be better. “So terrible” are the words that were used in the OP though, that I don’t agree with.
And I agree with what you’re saying about disc but disc is extremely niche. It has a very high skillcap and is exceptionally hard to catchup on if something goes wrong. Theres also a colossal difference between a 16 and a 24. The higher you go the less “viable” comps there will be, but any character played to a high level will easily time 20’s.
Because there would always be people to complain about imbalance even when there wasn’t any ?
Ex : “hi im pally and cant do a sh!t vs mages in duel cuz slow and sheep and spell steal wtf this game srsly trash balance fix it blizz ffs ty”, etc…
Back to the matter at hand, namely PvE, I first took my break from WoW when Cata hit because it kind of killed it to me, but I do remember some people praising class balance when WOTLK hit because it solved many Vanilla/TBC issues. Basically any class back then had a spot in endgame, and was even kind of mandatory. Though druids had it harder in ICC because of the dodge debuff, there was no unviable tank even though there was a best one. Healers were all equally viable, even disci, and shamies were top only because of their braindead gameplay - they still didn’t perform any better. Ferals were as good as rogues, shadow as good as warlocks, balance as good as ele and enhanc was a mix of pure destruction and fun. With the exception of frost, arms and sub being exclusively pvp, all the rest of the specs were performing just fine and, on top of that, actually had their use in raids.
PvP ? There was no such thing as “unviable” spec, let alone unviable “class”. Yes half of arena combos were warms/hpal, but you could find just anything else. Back then I had cap’d 2k on my ele and my mate was… assassination rogue. We’d melt the hell out of warms/hpals.
Know why shamies suck since Legion ? Because they scrapped them off their totems. They were nothing “weak” when BfA hit, people just complained about their lack of utility, and it was more than justified. So in order to address the issue Blizz found no other option but to make them ridiculously powerful. Guess what effect it had on other classes… Behold balance at its finest.
And now the game got dumbed down so much it’s becoming harder and harder to balance it, ironically.
Same goes for MoP, which I didn’t play that much, but I do remember almost every class being as fun and viable as any other, and you could basically be anything you’d never feel boring, or clunky, or slow, or useless, or anything you’re prone to feel nowadays if you play any melee other than dh, rogue or war (exaggerating of course).
Yes, all specs are playable in +10, but the difference in each and every one’s performance is far from being absent. When I tank on my overgeared dh, I feel so sorry for the healer. When I tank on my undergeared dk, I feel sorry for my dh. When I queue as dps on my dk, I hold my breath until the leader puts their key because I’m afraid they might find out I’m frost and actually kick me. And honestly, I wouldn’t blame them. Having played frost dk in Legion makes me wonder why I’m still playing it now. And better I don’t get started on arcane… hell even wotlk’s braindead rotation was more efficient.
Class balance in the overall is fine, everyone is able to do +15, but Not everyone is able to do +20.
Only a few classes are suffering from being useless later on and it’s a simple issue of utility and some numbers tuning, but that doesn’t mean that Class balance has never been worse.
When in cata you had a time where all you did was stack ferals.
People like to blow these things out of proportion, Paladin tanks damage is insane! and can arguably match warriors at some points in the instance, My friend which is NEW to tanking and playing paladin is pulling 16k+ dps overall, that’s way higher than your average warrior tanks on +15, and we he’s not yet geared enough, comfortable enough or on +15.
Rogue dps is fine and in some cases LOWER than a lot of other classes, it’s just that they can stick to their targets much more than other people and that their aoe is the same as their single target rotation making it harder to mess up the aoe, when ur hitting mobs in a 360 circle around you with +yds range increase, you’re bound to have more uptime on ur dps.
Rogues in +15 pugs ( which is the average I guess ) often pull 23-32k dps, rogues in +18s do about 32-40k overall, I pull those numbers on my Arms warrior, which has 0% representation on +20 and is considered one of the worse classes for M+.
People really need to stop blowing things out of proportion when literally Every class atm has done +20s and above ( Besides arcane mages ), when ur cap is m+27 some classes are bound to fall behind around the m+24 period and that is fine, you can’t have perfect balance.
Imo the only classes that need fixing and in some cases it’s not even a dps issue are the ones that you don’t see doing +20 or above with enough representation ( way less than 1% ), like Arms ( 36 ), feral (95 ), Frost dks ( 69 ), affliction locks ( 64 ) demo locks ( 93), surv hunters ( 6 lol ), fire ( 36 ) + arcane mages ( 0 ) and sub rogues ( 14 ) ( They have shroud btw and they’re the third lowest! ).
All before m+ mind, used to be just balancing for raids in pve. Also before streamed world first raids and mdi’s with the best players playing the best possible comp.
When PvP is streamed there’s no meta because you try to counter what the other team might be playing while in mdi and raiding the oppision never changes so there’s always a best way of setting up which creates metas and community oppinion.
yes you are imba pro player you should join method bro
I think it’s really not a class balancing issue at all, but rather a class design issue. Classes were fairly well balanced across the board during the last few expansions, but in Legion and BfA, because of how much stuff they removed from all classes, making a difference as a better player is not at all very visible, because how could it be when you press 3 buttons and 2 cooldowns as any class and get 90% efficiency already? So instead of seeing top players perform way above the norm with any class, you see top players slightly outperforming lesser members of their class group, but whatever (small) imbalances exist between classes are immediately visible, as that is the one thing that makes the biggest difference. Furthermore, the easier it is to pick up and play any class, the more fotm rerolling will exist. Don’t get me wrong, better players still outperform players below them, but the difference is lower.
All these issues are generated by excessive pruning and poor and unengaging class design, not a class balance issue that can easily be fixed by numbers tweaking.
I love you. Marry me.
I’m glad someone else actually said it in a well developed way. The imbalance is nothing more than a consequence of a class design which has been trashed down thanks to pruning.
If classes become nothing more than damage material, it becomes nearly impossible to balance them all, because the slight difference will make a lot of people pick some over others.
And we still have some people claiming classes are fine.
Yeah, sure thing…
That makes no sense. Removing unique or outlying skills would move closer to balance - if that’s a good thing or not is the question.
I’ll keep my cool and consider this poor excuse of a statement as a bad joke.
Instead of removing outlying skills, give each class its own, and none of them will ever be useless. That’s what we had, and designing it otherwise is what created the issue.
“Removing” is seldom the right solution.
So do we give everyone Shroud?
Should’ve started with this, I would’ve known what kind of person I was addressing.
Forget everything I said, it wasn’t meant for you.
I’ll take that as a no then.
Examples? Specifically with M+ in mind.
So do we give everyon shorud?
Edit : Reply wen to wrong person cause forums are weird.
You seem to be a little thick skull indeed. He was referring that every class should have something unique.
Rogues : - shroud
DKs(ALL) : - mass grip , the fact that only blood had it made such a big imbalance in tanks in s1 besides the self healing.
Shamans : BL etc.
So on and so forth the problem we are with now is that the classes that had something unqiue don’t have it anymore cause its either been dilluted, mages having TW and Hunters aswell. Or added as an item (Drums) which make it so you take only the unique classes left akka Rogue shroud which cannot be replicated ( if you come to me telling me a invis potion replicates it you do not understand that when you shroud your potions don’t go on cooldown suddenly for 5 min ).
Either give unique skills back OR buff the other class by a crap ton, the only reason warriors are so high isn’t because of their utility nonon it’s cause they do mad dps ,remove that and they fall down extremely fast.