Class design observations from a pvt server player


#5

I don’t know about DPS, but I didn’t enjoy playing resto druid in Cataclysm.

Our old mastery was just terrible, forcing a specific direct heal cast every 10 seconds.

Nowadays, I miss having a lot of things. I miss healing touch, I miss nourish, I miss direct heals refreshing my lifebloom.

But I don’t miss my old mastery for sure.


#6

Is there anyone who actually thinks one of their specs feels better in this expansion compared to previous ones?

They’re all starting to feel half-baked to me.


(Hínáta) #7

I’ve only played warrior and paladin in wotlk.

The only thing I see better or maybe just as good now is Prot Warrior.

Prot in wotlk was mindless but fun.

Prot now requires some pretty cool handling but Is abiiiit clunky.

Current arms would be 10x times more fun than it is now and just as great if not greater than arms in wotlk if blizzard didn’t shift it’s damage to it’s mastery and strip it of all sort of powers it had, making it a dot class that heavily depend on their team mates.

I recall everyone praising arms as the superbly awesome designed spec that’s going to come to BFA but then out of nowhere damage shift and people realized we got 0 utility once we lost our artifacts.

In general legion design was as good as Wotlk, MoP design was 10 times better than wotlk, but BFA is basically Legion but pruned, gutted and stripped down to the bone.


#8

Warrior was kind of the reason I started to write all of this. Arms is my main, and I found the spam too much. Two Overpowers and spamming Slam. Slam giving bleed, but not having passive deep wounds off Crits, kinda makes it not feel like Warrior too.


(Hínáta) #9

Been a warrior since vanilla :stuck_out_tongue: and been trying my best to give suggestions and ideas in the warrior forums, hopefully I’ll be heard one day.

P.S I think you meant mortal strike for bleed, slam doesn’t give any kind of bleed.

The only bleed you have now is deep wounds and for the M+9 Motherlode run I just finished.

It did 25% of my overall dps of 36.4k

and on Bosses it ranged from 24.6% to 27.5% of my over all damage.

On the third boss, doing 34k dps Deep wounds did 26.3%, melee did 11.9% and slam did 13% of my total damage

If you consider slam to be passive damage since it comes passively from whirlwind

My passive damage is 51.2%, as in 51.2% of my damage I cannot control.

If you don’t consider slam to be passive damage because you have to click whirlwind

Then my passive damage becomes 38.2% as in 38.2% of my damage I have no control of.

This in my opinion destroys the warrior class appeal, were supposed to be the class with the most active damage, instead we are with the most passive damage atm.


(Ishayu) #10

This thread confuses me. As far as I’m aware Classic WoW doesn’t have real rotations at all, really, and if the game calls for you to press the same ability many times because that is the best strategy, which it unfortunately did in raids rather often, then you simply press that one button repeatedly.

Instead your keyboard was full of small utilities and variations on damage dealing that was useful in certain circumstances only, but those circumstances came up rather often, especially in PvP.

This is of course very different to today, where we all do have rotations, where pressing 1 determines you must press 2 next rather than 1, regardless of what the enemy is doing.

There is another argument being made in here that live damage never feels chunky or satisfying, such as the comment made on Deep Wounds for a class that’s fundamentally supposed to hit you with a giant war axe (or whatever he has on hand! :smiley: ) and cleave your arm off in a single strike, and this is also true.

In fact, World of Warcraft now generates an obscene amount of combat log events, and these events are mostly damage. Obviously, if there are 10 times more attacks and the DPS should remain relatively the same, that means each attack hits for 1/10th, and that’s exactly what we’ve seen. Attacks, in general, hit for all of nothing, and they generally feel extremely unsatisfying to use, and yet you still take massive damage, and it’s impossible to tell in many cases what actually killed you in PvP, even with the extra tools added over the years.

I don’t like modern class design either. All I can really hope for is that they get the message real soon, but honestly I said that 4 years ago and they haven’t, so the continued decline is almost inevitable, unfortunately.


(Hínáta) #11

Part of the reason I like my MM hunter so much is that they crit for 100k+ all the time, which is super satisfying, also rapid fire after a multi shoot feels great.

On contrast where my mortal strikes reach a maximum of 57k if I had 6k+ str from ToM and Warbreaker which happens only when I have bloodlust, use the lucid essence and smash buttons fast enough to get another warbreaker in before ToM buff disappears… which is only 1 time in an entire fight, where I actually feel like a warrior for a total of 3 seconds.


#12

I like Prot 10 times more than back in Legion. In Legion, basically all I did was spam IP… I had so boring rotation, I even started to hate my spec (the only one I mostly played like ever).
This version is much more fun, harder and feels deeper to me. But I also liked older ones in WoD or TBC versions.


(Gannet) #13

Your post feels very “cherrypicky”.
First of all i don’t know what classes you play where you just spam one ability while waiting for something to come off cd. The specs i play have 4-5 abilities in their rotation with some low cd abilities that aren’t necessarily the brainless “used this once it comes of cd” type.

Also this idea that “it doesn’t fit with your rotation” is a weird criticism. This type of cd is more characteristic of the old game, where it felt like the devs just dropped some legos on us and said “see how you can make these fit”. (which i enjoyed)
Now everything is more structured and the rotations are carefully crafted and dictated from on high by the devs and our challenge is to execute as accurately as possible. In this age cooldowns fit by design, which is the exact opposite of your claim.

Lastly you mention tanking. This role changed quite a lot through the expansions and yes back in LK you had a lot more abilities on your DK, but to what end? what did you actually accomplish with it? Tank dps didn’t matter much back then, threat wasn’t much of an issue and survival was mostly based on your gear. I think that makes the perfect example for pointless complexity, showing that the amount of buttons you have to press doesn’t correlate to how good a class is to play.

Yes many tanking elements have been simplified or outright removed but also other elements were added, like active mitigation, which you conveniently don’t acknowledge.


(Søssky) #14

Your post feels very “cherrypicky” too, the only 2 specs I can think of that stray away from the mold are aff and demo because they’re dot specs (one literally and the other summons demons that basically work like dots).

Do you genuinely feel that warlock is even half as satisfying to play as it used to be? Even in PvE destro especially feels clunky, I know what I’ve lost and particularly when it comes to finishing off a mob with 1-10% hp left it feels bad having to cast incinerate. 3 expansions ago we had 2 mob finishing moves and now we have to overkill a mob by casting a 1-2 second spell? How is that better? How is it the same? To me that’s one example of objectively worse gameplay. How are you not worse off losing both instant shadowfury, your demonic circle and your self healing without gaining any mobility to compensate for it?

Warlock has gotten nothing since Mop and lost 1 or 2 abilities on every single front, how is that not objectively worse to play? Warlock is not an example of pointless complexity, every spell we lost had it’s place.


(Liljon) #15

Holy pally main here ever since I started playing in Wotlk release. I can still have fun with my class, but only because I mained it for so long. Current holy paladin is an abomination - in the wrong sense.


(Gannet) #16

What mold are you talking about? i disagreed with the OP claim that rotations now consist of “spamming one button while waiting for a cooldown”, yet you insinuate i’m wrong by making a claim that’s not contradictory to my statement. That’s not how arguments work.

Now while there are some areas i think my spec is lacking and i could make a whole page speaking of affliction issues, i’m not sure any of my solutions would be “go back to X” or maybe a bit in the aoe department.
And yes adding a cast time to shadowfury seems dumb however the number of abilities don’t make for an objective measurement of how good the spec is to play. I don’t care that i lost 1-2 buttons, i enjoyed affliction in legion much more than in MoP, even though it had like the worst active artifact power in the game.

Also is there anything in this game that someone at some time did NOT call clunky?


(Søssky) #17

The spamming one button while waiting for a cooldown mold, all the specs I’m playing are more or less that, affliction and demo are the 2 exceptions I can think of so I was less concerned about proving you wrong and more interested in what other specs you feel stray from that mold.

Also how was affliction artifact power the worst? I mean it was boring compared to a lot of others, but it was really strong. I agree that the number of spells doesn’t objectively indicate how good a spec feels to play, but in a lot of cases it does like my destro example. More abilities tend to mean more options for more scenarios which often results in a better experience for a broader amount of content. I can adapt if I have a bit of everything, if I only have a tightly tuned rotation that rotation is gonna be really good for one thing and not as good for other things. Destro again, fairly good (really good for those 30 seconds of juicy infernal damage) for single target, quite possibly the worst spec in the entire game for AoE. All the AoE abilities are on the talent tree, they’re all fairly mediocre on their own so if we had access to a few of them as baseline, say fire and brimstone suddenly our AoE rotation would’ve been an entirely different story. Casting cataclysm and then doing a single target rotation is not only not optimal, but it also feels bad.


(Gannet) #18

You know how you could describe anything in a boring manner? Like the Shawshank redemption is just a story of a guy who escapes from prison through a sewer. This is the vibe i’m getting from you.
Now i’m thinking of my alts and for example fury warrior could technically fit that mold of yours, but does a 3 sec cd count? when among the other abilites, because it fits rather gracefully and it never gets in the way. Raging blow has charges and always feels enough to get you to rampage before you have to wait for cooldown.
So from this point of view in now way i would describe the fury rotation as “spamming one button while waiting for a cooldown”.


#19

What? I’m coming from Wrath where every spec other than Enh has a clear rotation, usually with procs, buffs, and debuffs to maintain and deal more damage, and even more viable builds because of the multitued of talent choices, stats and glyphs.

I’m pretty happy playing Affli on WoTLK where I don’t just spam UA 400x, and don’t have to swap out actual abilities in my rotation for passives. Even Arms feels better on Wrath and it doesn’t even have the bigger ramp up rotation it had in Cata.

Then you’ve misunderstood my entire thread. I really don’t understand where the fun of pressing one AoE and then spamming the same button twice for an AoE pull can be fun for anyone. The idea of the build up is that you actually have something to do which makes it enjoyable. It doesn’t even look or feel interesting or satisfying at all. Death and Decay > Blood Boil x2 :sleeping:

They basically pruned all of the depth out of the game and then did a really lazy job at designing rotations for everything, leaving the whole game to feel like an ornate shape sorting toy.


(Gannet) #20

There is no clear cut-off point, the thing is that now rotation is very planned and structured and the further back in time you go, the less planned and structure it becomes.

Yeah in wrath UA was just a second corruption but with a cast time and you spammed shadowbolt 400x.

I don’t think you understand what “depth” means because the DK example is the exact opposite of that. What you described there is a clear LACK of depth, you had 5 buttons that did the exact same thing you now do with 2.
The idea is that you lost buttons from your DPS rotation, but now you have to deal with your survival “rotation” aswell, something that was almost passive in wrath. You still have something to do, but in another direction, is it that hard to see the full picture? and not focus on a specific out of context aspect?


#21

Yeah, but on Wrath I don’t need to spec into passives and drop spells, I get all of it, including other passives for more Haste and Proc chances. It also feels way more satisfying for me.

I mean depth of rotation, instead of 2 buttons. Maybe you don’t understand what “depth” means.

Blood DK was still one of the most active tanks in terms of maintaining survival, if you didn’t use cooldowns properly, you died. It was a good balance of a satisfying DPS rotation and using survival cooldowns when necessary, as well as making sure you had enough runes for DS.

There are also several Talent builds, armour sets, trinket combinations, which offered way more depth than now.


(Gannet) #22

I’m sure there are like a hundred ways to rationalize it, to spin every difference between now and wrath into a positive that serves your narrative, but i could do the same with everything exclusive to BFA and this can go on until morning.

Or maybe i do and by the looks of it you’re talking about complexity, not depth. The two are correlated a lot of the time but not always.
And yes DK was one of the most active tanks, in 2009, when tanking was mostly about stacking stamina, but in today’s arena it would be the least active by far. (although you could enjoy yourself by using 4 buttons to apply disease).

I don’t know about that. I don’t play on private server and don’t remember much, even though i tanked on my DK back in WotLK. I trust you have a fully geared max level DK tank with most essences unlocked on retail that serves as basis for that comparison, right?


#23

Almost like the gameplay tanked since older expansions. They literally removed half of the gameplay mechanics that existed when they pruned. Removal of depth/variability has just led to it being boring. Along with bad class design on top of that.

Also it wouldn’t matter if I had the highest geared character of ‘x’ class, I tried enough of them, and the gameplay was underwhelming and mediocre at best. I mean when an AoE pull consists of 2 buttons and then AFKing, I dunno what great knowledge I could possibly be missing.


#24

Not to be that guy but if we’re talking about being efficient and performing as good as you can there’s not several talent builds. There’s 1