It is quite obvious that this addon there were some quite blunt hints towards the forces of death playing a bigger role.
Bwonsamdi slowly rising to Zandalars top Loa, while also mentioning his “boss” .
Drustvar is full of stange forms of death magic and its own kind of nightmare afterlife .
Islands tell us that Helya is alive and well and there are many more necromancers out there than you may have thought.
Sylvanas’ necromancy is annoying death entities all around, as seen in the Vol’jin questline.
Bolvar’s daughter suddenly showed up, opening up the possibility of involving the Lich King in the story again.
Oh. And there is that light-raised undead thing with Calia…
Did I mention Sylvanas leading the Horde “in the service of death”?
Before the Chronicles we had no idea that there was a force of death outside of the usual void/shadow stuff, but Blizzard seems quite happy with pushing it at us now. But it is still very much a new thing. Even looking back there was never a clear division between shadow and death that we could have noticed.
The Lich King’s necromancers happily threw shadow bolts at us and used the same animations and color schemes as shadow spells, while shadow users in Auchindoun and the alternate Shadowmoon Clan were raising undead left and right. That the devs spoke of “dark magic” and mixed death powers with shadow powers themselves certainly didn’t make the distinction clearer. Yogg-Saron even called himself the “god of death”. In the non-canon RPG the forgotten shadow was even the main religion of the Forsaken. So… before this addon I didn’t even accept that these forces were independent at all.
So you can imagine I am having a hard time with the idea that undeath is something the void fears, something that could be used as an especially effective weapon against it, as closely as they were intertwined. And it would need quite a solid theory to convince me of this. But by now I am at least willing to listen.
There are some hints in this direction that haven’t convinced me yet:
In the Three Sisters comic we see the void whispers Alleria has to deal with. While they council to murder about everyone she meets here, they are especially vehement about Sylvanas, calling her “true enemy”, and nagging even after the moment has passed.
This never convinced me because I never had a problem seeing alternative explanations why they would say that and found the idea that the void would explain its weaknesses to Alleria questionable at best.
Saronite. In WotLK the undead of the Scourge seemed to be more or less immune to any negative effect of saronite. They went so far as to construct their armor and fortresses out of the stuff. This could be a strong hint that undead are resistant o the influence of old gods.
…or it was just a Scourge-thing, and the will of the Lich King was strong enough to resist the influence, while the rest of his minions didn’t have enough free will to go mad. Though it would be quite negligent of death knights to keep using the stuff after they were freed, I guess.
The main thing needed to resist the void whispers is will power, and Forsaken have loads of it. They even have the racial “Will of the Forsaken”!
…not convincing to me, either. The willpower of the first forsaken didn’t come from undeath, it was just what allowed them to break free from the LK.
N’zoth has new whispers in 8.15 that might be relevant. “The Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all.” and “I alone can save you from what is to come.” seem most relevant. Both point at some great threat to us that the void strongly opposes. With the Legion seemingly beaten and death’s momentary prominence… it seems to be quite a strong contender, especially if we remember that the forces of the Light just created a new kind of undead.
I just wouldn’t overestimate the accuracy of void whispers.
Conceptually some people argued that the void wants to feed on the suffering in the world, while death just wants to end it, which would put them at cross purposes.
I don’t buy this at all. The void was trying to devour everything. And apart from that… undeath seems to be a great way to prolong suffering after death.
That’s all the arguments thrown my way that I remember, maybe I forgot some. But they still leave me quite sceptical. I think it would be a terrible idea to put Sylvanas into the “champion of death” position and have her save the world, just as I wouldn’t want us to team up with team old gods to fight death, but I could theoretically imagine Blizzard doing that to us. I just don’t see the case to back this theory up.
So… can anyone try to make any version of the theory that death and void are at odds more convincing to me?
The Sylvanas messiah speculation has already been debunked a thousand times, the Void Lords are a cosmic threat, obviously they are not going to fear some Banshee on a random planet. They just grovel in madness and wanted Alleria to murder her loved ones. They also tried to convince her to murder Turalyon. Does this mean that Turalyon is also the chosen one?
Death is so overrated. Have you ever seen a planet consumed by the forces of Death? Nope. I, however, have seen many planets consumed by the Void. Unfortunately the Sylvanas fanboys will do anything to paint their waifu as the chosen one who can save everyone from the Void Lords.
Undead people are not immune to the effects of saronite. Chronicles Part 3 even explains that the saronite acts insanely effectively on the undead and decomposes their bodies and minds.
In the upcoming patch you will also learn something very interesting that the Shadows have something to do with the Shadowlands. In 8. 1. 5, this again speaks less for hostility than for an extended arm of the Void Lords. But the Void Lords could be a Enemy of all. Even the Old Gods would be dead, if the Voidlords win and consume the Universe.
Moreover, it was the Old Gods who taught the Nazrethim necromancy before Sargeras became aware of it.
It is always assumed that the void functions as a closed unit, but I think it is quite possible that the Old gods could partly stand against their creators.
Well, yes, but I was referring mostly to the mental effects of saronite, considering most people who came into contact with it became crazy, while the undead didn’t.
Could you elaborate on this? I already marked the thread as spoiler, so just post away.
Ah, yes, I forgot about that, another example why I have problems with the distinction between these forces…
Now that would be quite fun. Especially since N’zoth and Knaifu seem to have much more character than the ones we saw before. It would be nice if there was more going on.
Thros has its origins in the emerald nightmare! Which in turn is an void-generated entity, and the Drust are clearly using death magic!
Second
Peer into the gateway I command, cross into the realm of the Shadow Lands, I shall deliver you to your death!
The darkness… it flows within me. It seeps from every vein. Come, strangers, gaze into the eyes of the void. Tender your souls to me.
Another interesting fact is the encounter of Odin with this powerfull spirit in the Shadowlands!
It is said that N’Zoth sees everything, anything, that can certainly be nonsense, but this powerful spirit gave Odin the ability to perceive reality and the Shadowlands in equal parts.
Yes, the Undead Mind stopped to exist, i do not think that is a better Solution.
I wonder anyway why someone would expect a faction that clearly tends to act chaotically and considers everything in every timeline to be at face value, considers every probability to be true that this unified works together. . .
His eyes behold every truth… every unnumbered crime!
The growing importance of Death as one of the cosmic forces of the setting is undeniable. Whether the Void has anything against death magic however, remains to be seen. In the past, death magic and shadow magic was used interchangeably. Then again, this might be because the current cosmological layout didn’t exist at the time. I’ve got my own theories about the links between the forces of Death and Void, but I’d be going on an off-topic tangent if I went into detail on that.
I wouldn’t put much salt in how much the Void despises Sylvanas in that comic. Official Warcraft comics are infamous for producing very dubious lore that is rarely acknowledged in the game, the primary medium of the setting. The nature of Saronite isn’t particularly well-explained, so I don’t think it’s wise to make too many theories about it based on what we know. Finally, you’re right on the matter of Void whispers. They’re completely unreliable, frequently contradictory and very misleading.
So I’d argue that you’re right and that as of yet, there’s no solid evidence about any rivalry between the fundamental forces of the Void and Death.
If you’re looking for a part of the Shadowlands that is directly connected to the Void, a better example would be the Edge of Reality. For some reason, the death magic of the AU Shadowmoon Clan was very closely connected to the Void.
Anyway, you can just ignore Arctur above, completely ignorant and out of touch with lore and story, and possibly reality.
Things you pointed out are pretty much it.
As evidenced by the thousand year audio, Death…entropy, and its physical form of titan Argus has existed before the universe itself, surpassing everything, …the Light, the Void…etc…everything. It is the most ancient of forces that is beyond the reach of both Light and Void. Sure, the Void can animate the dead, delve with souls…and so can Fel and clearly the Light in it’s own way, we have seen as much.
The Void has every reason to fear ‘‘Death’’, it is so incredibly ancient that Void is but a speck of dust in the universe by comparison. Death/undeath is the ultimate enemy for that very reason, enemy in a sense that other forces of the universe alter the living, giving the unnatural lives, immortality even, especially the Titans. All things must die and go into an entropic state, eventually oblivion as that is the order that existed before creation itself, before the universe, order that is being twisted by other forces ever since the birth of the universe.
Death came only after the collision of the primeval powers.
Wrong, Light and Void beings are beings of her own dimension, they have not to fear anything inside the universe, because they are eternal, untouchable.
The Void can many more things.
Death…is not a real threat for light and void.
No, the void is the ultimate enemy…a void titan…is able to obliverate the entire Universe…alone, even Death would be…dead…after that.
Void is the Essenze of Entropic itself…^^ you should be able to read…all of that stayed in Chronicles, the real big enemy for the entire Universe, the Power of Void…the Power of Entropy as Essence is void^^
As i said it is evidenced by a canon source, an irrefutable one at that. Feel free to be ignorant however.
The rest you wrote is pretty much worthless. Can’t say if it’s a headcanon or simply outdated information.
Death/entropy is beyond Light and Void, beyond any force in the universe, because Death/entropy existed before the universe. It’s literally said in an audio, but you can rely on whatever source you deem fitting for you.
all of that stayed in Chronicles
Chronicles are largely worthless at this point, only good for certain information, but seems like you haven’t been keeping up.
Hö? What? nothing what you descripe is canon…only your HEADCANON! Even in the new Audio-Book stayed the primal Forces of Light and Void, and her Influence over the entire Universe and all beings inside of it. The long War between this forces and the long history.
Death predates all of Warcraft universe. How about you listen to the whole 2 hour audio before you talk crap.
Audio has more value than written text. It has already been confirmed that chronicles were written from a point of view of a single individual, so to speak, which largely negates it’s canon-ity, meaning things are up to debate…questionable.
Light and Shadow
Light and Shadow are the most fundamental forces in existence.
[…]
Life and Death
The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living things in the physical universe.
WoW.: Chronicles Vol. 1 pg. 10
Chapter 1: Mythos
Origin
Before life began, before even the cosmos took shape, there was Light… and there was Void. Unfettered by the confines of time and space, the Light swelled across all existence in the form of a boundless prismatic sea. Great torrents of living energy flitted through its mirrored depths, their movements conjuring symphony of joy and hope.
The ocean of Light was dynamic and ever shifting. Yet as it expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.
This was the Void, a dark and vampiric force driven to devour all energy, to twist creation inwards to feed upon itself. The Void quickly grew and spread its influence, moving against the flowing waves of Light. The mounting tension between these two opposing yet inseparable energies eventually ignited a series of catastrophic explosions, rupturing the fabric of creation and birthing a new realm to existence.
In that moment, the physical universe was born.
WoW.: Chronicles Vol. 1 pg. 18
Source? Last time I checked it said
World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1 is a journey through an age of myth and legend, a time long before the Horde and the Alliance came to be. This definitive tome of Warcraft history reveals untold stories about the birth of the cosmos, the rise of ancient empires, and the forces that shaped the world of Azeroth and its people.
I’m in an agreement after he started dissing the Chronicles.
If the guy is serious only paragraph I can pull form A Thousand Year War that could even closely support his view point is:
He was in another realm, one he did not know. The skies were dark, twisting, filled with strange, conflicting powers. He couldsee entire worlds hanging in the distance, seemingly close enough to touch and yet unimaginably far away. He felt the Light intermingling with the Shadow. He felt the primal, uncontrolled forces of chaos and order, life and death, clashing here. https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/U5IQKY6K35271505861653212.pdf
Nothing else mentions Death itself and this is just an offhand reference that Turalyon had ended up on a world that had just about every Force clashing with each other.
