Current ret is an unstoppable godmode spec

PVP Arenas
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i mean this exist since vanilla, and as comparison, feral is squischy, or have less “dmg” when he can connect a target, outside of the burst windows
and feral mobility is no longer as op as it used to be + feral got in Legion a cd on Shapeshift

thats indeed a Problem, thats why im not a fan of racial abilities in rated arena, in bg´s or openworld i dont mind it

just the biggest problems, like frostbite rng, ret range, mage mobility, rogue garrote, warri gap closer silence uptime, dk beeing a bm hunter 2.0 / Shaman knocks (atleast they increased the cd on static field totem)

ah idk, i reallize they even added more toxic gameplay to the game with tww, thanks to M+

fury warri beeing a 1 button class what can do high amount of dmg when this class is meta

2 Likes
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Frost mage is currently one of the most broken and OP specs there is right now…

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You know it can still be toxic by design even if it has existed for quite awhile right? Its all based on how the players sees it.
I still remember not being able to get away from a feral simply because he was able to get out of anything except hard stuns.

And by your argument before, they could change feral and remove the toxic gameplay.
So you get your defensives but you cant shapeshift out of root or be immune to polymorph/hex for example.
If we are going to talk about melee has to be melee to deal dmg. We can also change how dots works, if you are not in melee. It wont tick.
(I am being ironic here.)

Alot of it is based on what the individual sees as toxic gameplay.
If rets are undertuned while still being ranged. Would you see that as toxic gameplay or would you see that as “this is fine”? Since it wont affect your own gameplay by default?

Theres plenty of things I could number as “toxic gameplay” for me but it might not be the same for everyone.
If we would cater to everyone we might have to remove alot of stuns, nerf alot of CCs or even remove it all together since theres plenty of ppl who sees CC as toxic.

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Toxic gameplay is gameplay that cannot be countered, or abilities that just seem cheap. We used to make a big deal out of counterplay. Toxic gameplay is ret being able to dish out full damage while bubbled, for example.

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Which is not something I have argued against though. I know perfectly why its toxic gameplay against specs that have no way to remove the bubble. Making you deal less dmg while inside it wouldnt be too bad overall. Thats my opinion on it.

I just dont understand why ppl say tuning is not related to if rets are OP or not when its related to pretty much every spec in the game. Just because they have bubble will not make them automatically OP if they do not have the dmg at the same time.

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I think the issue is that ret is constantly bursting, without much setup. And final verdict shouldn’t be a ranged ability. DHs had the same issue last season iirc.

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The rework made rets easy to play and easy to pick up.
It being overtuned causes issues when it is easy to perform.
Now lets say they nerf final verdict so its only melee (which it never were) in what way would you compensate rets lack of mobility when you gut their ability to deal dmg to range?
Also a friendly reminder that JOTP are gone.

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Making topics based on prepatch feelings, this aged like milk.
Ret is in quite bad spot when compared to many other classes right now dmg wise and mobility is worst in game. Got single target nerfed by too much in last tuning.

It has always seemed to me that the issue is that rets have immunities so if their dmg is on par with others ppl claim theyre op, maybe bring back the old design of doing 50% reduced dmg while in bubble and buff the dmg and mobility to match others.

For love of god dks have freedom baked in their steed… that is what rets have been drooling over for years. On the very least make freedom not be dispellable, without it we just waddle around in million slows.

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Mage can just press spellsteal and automatically win vs ret now. I’m surprised they didn’t go the extra mile and make wings spell stealable again too.

If you’re losing vs a ret atm as mage, you’re bad, straight up.

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but some things are obvious, like rogue shadowdance, mage utility, frostbite proc mage, the current feral bite, “feral cyclone df gameplay” warri gapclosers, ret range
dragonflight fmage living bomb gameplay into dks/ bm hunters

some stuff is just obvious, and not “just a own feeling”

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Ret range is only “toxic gameplay” when rets are overtuned.
When its not overtuned it will have the same feeling as most melees who are stuck in your face. (According to 99% of ranged here on the forum, its every melee).
They even removed JOTP from rets and gave it funny enough in my book a trash pvp talent instead.
Like I said before, I can quite honestly say I feel ferals ability to remove slows/roots and be immune to hex/polymorph to be toxic. Even remember how massively toxic it were in WoD.

Some stuff are obvious sure, but alooot of complains on this very forum is “just own feeling”.

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well cuz of powershift

i mean stuff like warri gap closer, ret range, mage mobility are some of the main reasons, why the overall Gameplay is toxic currently besides of the high amounts of micro cc´s from most of the classes because of m+

its everything together, not just ret, i prefer to make freedom not purgeable, or give ret 2x freedom charges, or movement speed bonus when u use judgement

against mages it is toxic, thats the main reason why jungle counters rmp by default, but against other people it is toxic when feral does high amount of sustain dmg + high mobility which is currently the case

in cata feral cant shift roots, only slow, and this type of Gameplay was really bad, the best solution was, to give feral cd on Shapeshift. and its fine how it is currently, cyclone and this current dmg is more of a problem, not shapeshift

that can be your opinion, i dont mind, but you should see the problem with ret as a whole, it is a problem that was created because of other classes, its just a arms race

i dont mind ret in general, really, but the arms race between meele/caster is just cringe and i dont see a point why someone need so much range/mobility in m+ besides of tanks for masspulls

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One reason being they could cyclone and do everything inside catform.

If ret range is one of the main reasons the game is toxic. No comments.
You could very well argue that if they buff feral bleeds that will be toxic as long as it works outside of melee range.
If melee is supposed to be melee, there should be no bleeds or poisons that keeps ticking if they are outside of melee range if so.

They did give that once before. But it was apparently too powerful.
Making freedom not purgeable while removing rets range have a high possibility to make rets bad again. Do you honestly believe rets mobility is good if you remove the range?

Its more than mages that have roots or slows.
And the “but against other people it is toxic when feral does high amount of sustain dmg + high mobility” is literally how it is for most specs in general. When things have too much damage in general it is toxic. When things have too much mobility it is toxic.

Yes its quite cringe to see. But its also cringe to see how people demand buffs to make them worse like some ferals did before.
I already said before that toxic gameplay, atleast for alot of people, comes down to their own personal belief. Alot of it is also based on what they are NOT playing.
How many times have you not seen posts with the dumbest arguments?

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and even then, Turbo, and Rogue (rmp) was better surprise surprise

u dont get the point or?

The Mobility Arms Race between Multiple classes “including” Ret, what can hit you from Bangladesh when you are not a fmage is the problem, same counts for frostbite, Warri gap closer, mage mobility etc…

if you think slow cd on gap Closers, low cd on warlock port, mage mobility, a Meele Beeing more range than Meele, isnt a issue, then i cant help you.

yeah i get it, u want to throw just only Feral insults, because u want to defend your class i get it man, if you can not have a normal objective opinion then the discussion will be pointless

and btw, if you come up with the Suggestion to remove bleed/ poisons, then they will buff bite to counterbalance the missing Dmg from bleeds, enjoy 3 mio bites then or what, if you want to be biased, please do it right

so your point of the discussion, Remove Feral bleeds, Remove Shapeshift, Next suggestion is to remove cyclone and Barkskin because its “too op” “he can use
Barkskin while stunned”

I don’t know if you’re serious or just trolling, but because I’m having a good day I repeat what I wrote, and will be nice to you.

Nerf Pala Range Abilitys <— But buff his Mobility as comparison, either more Freedom charges, and not Purgeable, or a Movement increase after using Judgement. (but nerf the gap closers, and mobility from other classes aswell) so we can go back from an Anime, where everyone is Naruto, back to an Mmo, what does not require adh/d

Thats my entire point, but u just dont get it, and feel instantly Attacked because u want the Path to get a random 2.1 in solo shuffle as easy as possible. to quit wow after it again.

if you had read my other posts u would know its not only about Ret, ret is just a part of the problem

The only powerful thing about freedom is/was, that he can give it to his mate, which is why ret warri was so strong and the new Zugzug Turbo cleave

better than now,if they decrease mage mobility and other gap closers as comparison, thats my whole point

they started already with ww monk (sky reach) feral Astral influence, and the rogue talent what also increased the range.

okay got it, next suggestion also to remove roots from feral, at this point u also can remove predatory swiftness, because regrowth is already nerfed to the ground and not a global worth.

but feral dont have high sustain Dmg anymore, its a tactician spec for like 4 expansions now, last time when feral was a toxic high sustain class with high mobility was in Legion

in tww, feral getting nerfed anyway but probably Bite. most of the ferals dmg is backed in Ferocious Bite and Feral Frenzy, this have nothing to do with sustain

and this is because of warri gap closers, dh´s ret range and (m+ maybe) just an arms race between gap closer and mobility where some classes are luckier and some less

i mean, i have played against multiple rets, i played “j4f a ret” for one day in shuffle and was 2.1 something and 2.3 mmr but i quit instantly the class because it´s not fun, and every double caster felt like a nightmare. especially destro lock (when it was meta) in combination with elemental shaman or mage

but this problem only exist, because of short cd´s like warlock port, static totem (what got finally nerfed) mage double blink

thats why i said, nerf mobility, and ret range or rework it, instead of going further, and giving ret more range, otherwise we stay in a Walmart budget anime

main point is that there is too much gap closer/ the cd is too low, and the same goes for escape options on some classes, its not only about ret.

and btw, u complaining about Feral movement and be able to shift slows, and roots, play 1 game as feral against fury warri or unholy dk and tell me how it went

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They did that before didn’t they. Not sure why they wouldn’t do it again. Allowing a class to smash out all their capable DMG whilst immune to everything is pretty barbaric.

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And what has that to do with it being toxic?

So 20yards on FV/BoJ and 30yards on HoW/Judgment is bangladesh.

I get the point of main reasons of things being toxic, but you putting it as a “main reason” is kinda meh.
Just an interesting thought, how many abilities do you believe got changed to be ranged or how much more ranged compared to after rework?
Or how long do you feel rets have been toxic due to their range?

But I am not defending my class? :thinking:
I am just interested to know your ideology behind being a melee and what that implies.
How would you see ret as being melee? What would you nerf? What would you change? How would you make them viable with your ideas?

I talked about judgment giving movement speed. They even tried to give it back once before but deleted that change for divine steed I believe which not that many rets were fond of.

I guess you dont see the point.

Did you skip what I wrote after it?
My entire point with adding that context you said were to point out certain things becomes more or less toxic depending on tuning on the spec.

It feels like you dont even bother reading. Just take comment out of context and answer it that way.

My personal belief them removing the -dmg modifier on divine shield were alot based on PvE. There is no real reason for them not being able to just add it back unless they have some form of reason not to (atleast for PvP).

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cuz it wasnt meta, didnt had a high representation, and there were things that were much worse, which is why it wasn’t on the radar.

like fury warri siegebreaker, rogue killing spree, rogue shadow reflexion, rdrood haling, enh beeing a purgebot without a cd. Dk´s, Frost arrow from hunter.

because the mobility of some classes, with gap closers/ high escape mobility are a part of the main reason, which will only cause more problems in the long run

as long as Warris have so many gap Closers, Ret being more range than Meele, there will be no changes to ranged mobility happen, it will stay the same, or getting increased

to a point where u have a anime scenario in every game.

eh, i talk about Ret mobility, and what they should change, or even ask what should get changed, to step a level back, when it comes to mobility/range on every class

and u just came up with nonsense “Feral” nerfs/ spell removal, without saying "yo hey man, if our range getting gutted, we need freedom being undispellable, or slower cd on the horse

like i said, its not about ret, its about close to every class, to go from a anime opening back to an mmo

it´s not just my ideas, it´s more like "what should be changed, to go 1 step lower when it comes to mobility, and escape Abilitys in general. Ret was just a example, because it´s not good, when a Meele can hit u from a long range.

i mean, they could decrease the speed gain of it, idk why it should be “more broken, or too op if they nerf the range as comparison”

makes ret movement also more sustain, and things like, that u have to use freedom everytime when u use steed wont happen

because if u dont use freedom before you use your steed it will be useless, random frostbite procs, roots

scenarios like this are just annoying, nothing else, same issue was with monk mirrors beeing weak to cc, they changed it, that mirrors are now immune to fear/roots

i think WW monk at this case is the best example, to remove toxic gap closers like Skyreach, but things like this wont matter, when mages, ret, warri stay the same

like you do.

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So you are saying because it did not have high representation it wasnt toxic?
Im confused what you are trying to tell me.

So you did not even bother trying to say what your ideology is with ret.
All you say is you want it to be melee/nerf ret range.
But what do you define melee? Should every single skill be melee range only? Do you want to rework ret to be what it has never been? What do you want ret to be?
Atleast try to explain how you believe it should be with its spells/skills.

Because people whined about it. It was too good in general usage aswell since it was literally a permanent buff.
It feels like you dont understand that much about consequences of changes you ask for.

Oh? Can you quote where I removed context out of answers?
Im not the one quoting something which was an explaination of context to answer it outside of its original use.

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