Current state of DPS DK

I will preface this with giving a little information about my background as a DK player, to be transparent about any personal biases. If you don’t care about this, you can skip the next paragraph.

I am a mythic raider at the Cutting Edge level and have only played Death Knight at this level, so I’m definitely in the higher end of play, but I’m also nowhere close to the top echelons within that niche. I mostly care about raiding, it’s why I play this game. I also spend a lot of time in the Acherus Death Knight discord server, where I help out players who are new to the spec and keep in touch with others at or above my level about all things DK. While I have occasionally tanked on a boss or two in the past, I am mostly a DPS player and only really have deeper knowledge about mostly Unholy, but also Frost.

Coming from this background it has become impossible to ignore how unhappy players at pretty much all tiers of play are becoming with the state of both Frost and Unholy. There are even clips of the Liquid race to world first being happily shared, where Frost and Unholy are being called garbage tier specs, because we are so desparate for any attention being brought to our current state at all. I would like to write out these frustrations in hopes that others will join in in voicing their opinions and so that ideally the devs will see this and start working on solutions beyond just making our numerical output higher.

Of Death Grips and Raid Buffs

From dev interviews it has become clear that the balance teams believes that Death Grip is strong enough as a utility to justify Death Knights not needing a raid buff of their own. On certain fights, we can all agree that this is true. However, the issue is that this is only really true on those specific fights. Why do Shamans, Druids, Warriors, Mages and so on get to have something that is useful on every boss and DKs’ raid buff is only good on maybe two bosses per raid? Everyone probably agrees that having every fight in a raid require grips is a bit too much, so this narrative that Death Grips are equal to a raid buff simply does not hold up.

On top of that there is also an enormous difference in the utility that a Blood Death Knight brings, compared to what either Forst or Unholy brings. Gorefiend’s Grasp alone makes Blood do things that no DPS DK can and then their regular Death Grip also has less CD. Having a tank DK is strictly better than a DPS DK. The only time where that isn’t the case are when you need multiple DKs, but you can just bring a second tank DK again. Additionally, Anti-Magic Zone is also stronger for a Blood DK on account of their higher hp as a tank spec. Shamans have had this same issue with a raid utility disparity between specs and they were brought in line with each other. So why not do the same for DKs? Bringing the three DK specs in line with each other also makes it so guilds above a certain level don’t have to force one of their tanks or dps to play Blood for specific fights (like Ovinax just last season.)

Frost Death Knight

Currently Frost is a dual wielding spec. Two-Handed weapons are strictly worse than dual wielding and the passive that is supposed to overcome that gap isn’t able to compete with the higher attack speed one-handers and the second Runeforge. This means that half the weapons you get as Frost lootspec are worthless, unless they are a ridiculously big upgrade and even then you are locked out of playing certain talents, because they aren’t created with two-handed Frost in mind. Either remove two-handers from the lootspec or buff the passive to bring the weapon types in line. There are many players that would love to play with two-handers and it would make off-specing a lot easier, so personally, I’m in the camp of buffing it.

Frost’s Hero Talents are in a weird place. Rider of the Apocalypse requires two talent points to be spent on Frostwyrm’s Fury and Absolute Zero to function at all, which completely locks you out of playing it with Breath of Sindragosa. Even if you could pick it up you would be looking at various CDs that simply don’t line up:

  • Breath (2 min), Empower Rune Weapon (2 min), and Remorseless Winter (20s) align
  • Pillar of Frost (45s), Reaper’s Mark (45s; as the 30s talent is never chosen), Chill Streak (45s), Frostwyrm’s Fury (90s/3 min) align
  • Frostscythe is 30 seconds, reduced by Killing Machines spent in that time so it randomly aligns or doesn’t align making it very unreliable

If we had actual choices in our talent tree around the various CD reducing talents that already exist, this could all make sense. With current tuning however, those talents are currently either always or never taken and there is no room for choice. So optimal play means you just never use your 2 minute CDs at 2 minutes and instead wait 15 extra seconds so they line up with your 45s CDs. This is unintuitive and feels weird to play.

Speaking of Hero Talents, Deathbringer still has a 30% chance to just reapply Reaper’s Mark, which feels great when you hit the jackpot or awful if you don’t. I would still prefer some deterministic way to reapply it - or just no reapplications at all - instead of pure chance.

Lastly, Frost currently has simply too much passive cleave in its various abilities. While this is obviously not a bad thing, it means there are almost no decisions to be made between content types. You pretty much always play the same regardless of AoE or Single Target. A lack of abilities that can be buffed for a purely single target gain, also make balancing more difficult than it needs to be. Probably as a result of exactly this issue, Frost lands consistently near the bottom on pure single target encounters like Kyveza.

Unholy Death Knight

Unholy has lost its identity. Maybe it never had one. It now competes with Frost as a 45s/90s spec. Army of the Dead is no longer a thing and its pets are getting outpaced by other damage sources with the advent of San’layn. But this doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Unholy needs a new, stronger identity and this is the perfect time to build one.

The talent tree always had the issue of not really knowing which class fantasy it wanted to lean into. We are doing a bit of shadow magic, a bit of master of undead and a bit of pestilence all at the same time. Instead focusing the spec more on one or two of these aspects and providing a coherent fantasy could that strong identity for Unholy.

We have many talents in the tree that are entirely useless, never see play and also haven’t received any attention from the balancing team: All Will Serve, Ruptured Viscera, Unholy Pact, Decomposition and Runic Mastery are 4 spaces that are immediately available and wouldn’t be missed much. These could easily be swapped out with new things that amplify one of our themes. There is also the choice nodes of Plaguebringer/Clawing Shadows and Gargoyle/Doomed Bidding that need attention. Clawing Shadows is losing to Plaguebringer in all but one build and Gargoyle is not seeing any play at all. Some of these options could be pulled into the baseline to make more space.

Festering Strike and Outbreak are two baseline abilities so weak, that our rotation and talents are built around pressing them as little as possible. Playing around wounds in Raid encounters also does not feel good. It makes Unholy’s target switching needlessly worse, since out pets are already bad at it.

As Rider of the Apocalypse, the Horsemen don’t listen to pet commands. Saying that it’s annoying when they run off to the wrong boss on Silken Court, fight spider eggs instead of real enemies in Delves, or somehow aggro the 2nd boss in Grim Batol from across the room is an understatement. We also have Raise Abomination now, which is painfully slow. I remember situations where I would watch him waddle over to a boss that was moved by a tank, counting the seconds in my head to math out if he’s taking long enough to make it worth applying Virulent Plague manually instead of waiting for him to get in range. Blood Beast is also another pain point in AoE for San’layn specifically. Having it be entirely random just wastes its potential.

Another massive issue with the current iteration of Unholy is Sudden Doom’s automatic crit effect on Death Coil and Foul Infections’ increased crit chance on diseases. These two talents make Crit a worthless stat for Unholy. It’s gotten to the point where we would rather have Versatility than Crit, even though Versatility is by no means close to Haste or Mastery in terms of gains. This will cause more and more issues the further we get into the expansion, as we will reach higher stat thresholds on Mastery and Haste, forcing us to eventually pick up more and more of the other two stats. It also makes gearing weird, because only items with Haste and Mastery are actually good and everything else feels bad to get. Off-specing is also hurt by this, as Frost loves Crit and Unholy loathes it. The spec desparately needs more interactions with Crit in its kit to bring it back in line with other stats.

I believe that Unholy could massively benefit from a proper rework if attention and care is put into it. The aesthetic, theme and gameplay all require attention right now and there is a lot of potential with its base as WoW’s closest thing to a necromancer (customizable ghouls anyone?)

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Really good post from you. You touch on allot of the issues which we all agree on is hindering Death Knight’s play style.

Frost to me feels like it always does something but never reaches the result it wants to aim for, our procs feels half baked as they A. Does to little damage or struggle to synergies with the talent tree B. Rime/Killing Machine don’t have other talent’s that makes the proc do something more towards our play style, they are simply a wait and see if something happens instead of filling a role to build up to something big, this leaves them as either a spamy proc or a proc in Rimes case where we don’t want to press it in certain circumstances.

Frost needs a full rework to it’s talent tree where the intent is to design it to not be a just flat damage % scaler but add things for our core talent kit to do while also offering multiple play styles to build towards, breath is not one of them as it does the opposite and make us ignore our core rotation and force us in to a tunnel button mashing spec, we also lack a certain theme to frost DK as well, to set us apart from others.

Unholy to me has come to a point where i think Blizzard need to accept that this talent tree needs to be split in to 2 new talent trees to let Unholy Death Knight’s theme to finally hit the mark which it lacks right now.

Diseases and Undead has always been the core of what makes a Death Knight, yet Blizzard seems to think not having them be something we should feel like we are a master of we instead have ended up feeling like a Rogue in plate with dumb combo point system [Festering Wounds], when we want to talent in to Diseases or Undead we are always left with the feeling of being unfinished in the talent tree design, that has resulted in the spec not being able to flow naturally when we play it. One of the massive down points i can give to Blizzard here is the lack of communication on it, and the fact they have started to make Unholy hit like a Frost Dk with it’s skills, resulting in the line between Unholy/Frost getting blurred as a result of it.

Overall, Unholy should be split in to Necrotic/Unholy to solve this talent tree design/theme issue it has. Necrotic should fill in the theme of Diseases and synergies that leads up to heavy damage hits when talented in to it. Unholy should do what the name literally is called, doing something opposite to Holy, that being instead of resurrecting the dead back to life, instead you raise them back in to undeath. The theme for Unholy should always be about where there is many, i can make more undeads of them. Unholy’s current functions leaves allot to be desired to aim for the ultimate theme of feeling like the Lich King, just raising an unending swarm of undeads while also commanding giant flesh constructs, and Val’kyrs to do our bidding, or Liches to blast the enemy target with powerful dark magics, Crypt lords charging from the ground to impale and maim their victims, and the list goes on.

We have waited for this issues to be confronted all the way back to BFA, that alone shouldn’t be acceptable thing to have been going on for so long. We need to make as much noise as we can on this, and for any streamers Youtubers or so, i recommend calling out Blizzard on this, it’s not fine to have to repeat every damn expansion, THAT WE DO NOT LIKE THE CURRENT DESIGN Unholy and Frost has going for it.

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As BDK main i totaly agree. Changes would benefit all 3 specs. Make AMZ baseline and instead of AMZ talents put Gorefiend’s gasp there. Give usefull raid buff for DK. raid buffs is not only important for mythic raiding, but also in M+. from blizz saying grips are enough its such a bald statement. Then it should also imply to other classes also (divine shield for prot pally, multiply CC for shamans and other stuff)…

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My brother from a Draenei mother, thank you for your post, I don’t often read things where I 100% agree with everything that is written. In a way it’s almost worrying because it shows just how glaringly obvious the problems are.

Bit of context from me too, I’m taking a break from the game this season, but generally I’m also a mythic raider with a couple of CEs under my belt, but just like you said too I’m not top 100 material or anything like that. I’ve found myself being in the weird spot where I play exclusively DK. Yes I’ve geared other alts and classes, enh shaman, ret paladin, and a warrior, but somehow, even if they feel more fun than DK, I just want to play DK. That’s where I vibe, that’s where my skills work better.

I’m taking a break not just because irl things are quite busy currently and can’t keep up with the gearing loop, but also I’m genuinely tired of DK being the same old clunky mess. We always get a basic pass, some knobs are being twisted and % adjusted, maybe we get a band aid solution to pre-existing issue but that’s about it.

Other classes get looked after all the time, get fundamental overhauls even if they’re not deeply problematic, things are being tried out and experimented on, even if it’s not always the desired solution. We’re always getting micro variations of the same old, clunky iteration of DK.

Last time anything major happened was Legion. It is frustrating to say the least. I want the dev team to have a proper look at the class and do some serious work, not just put a 5% modifier on some spells and call it a day:

General Class Issues

  • The overwhelming majority of DK players agree that requiring D&D to cleave feels outdated. It’s evident by the many patchwork solutions you’ve been adding over the years (2nd charge, reduced CD talents, CD reset for blood).
  • Raid buff. OP very clearly outlined everything there is to say, I will say no more.
  • Hero specs are mostly unsuccessful. Deathbringer has its fun moments but the RNG sucks. Riders has the talent “Death Charge” which is such a fundamentally strong it should be part of the main class tree, the rest sucks. San’layn has the weirdest fantasy and pushes Unholy’s gameplay into a contradictive direction, evidently made more sense for blood, it’s otherwise underwhelming.

Unholy

  • Re-examine the core identity of the class, are we a pet class, a DoT management class or a direct damage class? Pick one and stick with it. Or like Chillmore says, make a 4th spec.
  • Have a thorough look at the wound system, admit that it’s a resource system and not a set of abilities really, a worse version of rogue combo points or monk chi.

Frost

  • Is it a DW class or a 2H class? Pick one and stick with it. I understand you want to create contrast between specs, but honestly, make that come from gameplay not gear. Personally I’d advocate for all 3 specs to have a 2H weapon so it makes gearing easier and more enjoyable to swap between specs. If you’re concerned about the Legion artifact not making sense, I’m sure you have the tech to recreate it as single 2H weapon, scale it up if you need to.
  • BoS has been in the heart of so many debates, love it or hate it, something is evidently wrong with it so do something about it. I maintain the 2 following points, it needs to either be removed completely or made baseline and then add multiple talents that modify how the ability plays.

Blood

  • Blood players have been always shouting about tier sets not giving them agency and instead getting random procs of which they have no control over. This has happened in multiple tier sets now.
  • Every expansion you seem to have a different idea on how you want Deathstrike to work. Maybe it’s time to admit that the whole “take damage first mitigate later” approach has its flaws. Yes good players are nearly immortal but a lot of other tanks, and honestly healers, don’t seem to enjoy that gameplay. I’m not advocating to make blood tank like paladin, but you need to have a look at the heart of the spec once again and figure out a sustainable way forward where we can express the blood fiend fantasy without feeling like paper if we make one mistake.

Don’t make us go another season with the same glaring issues please.

#overhaulDK
#deadknights
#damnedenough
#whichking?

(run out of gimmick # ideas, please make more and propagate them)

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