Darker Elf Skins Diversity Box-Tick ✅

[Гинир-gordunni]

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Pretty much all of your “rebuttals” to my points, are community headcanon.

Rebutted in a previous post.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Nothing in game explains why the dwarves are grey, or why the pandaren are black, or why the tauren are blue.

That’s the game’s problem that has been going on since the release. Majority of lore comes from different media. Also, some things should be so bloody obvious they shouldn’t
be specified. If you need to specify something obvious that any developed and rational human being can get just by looking at it and putting 2 and 2 together to anyone, then maybe the problem is not on your end.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

You’re positing explanations that “seem plausible” but aren’t specified in game.

Some are plausible, some were directly confirmed by devs and writers through pannels, books and game itself. Including your previous point.You need to look harder.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Yet for some reason we need an in-game explanation for why elves are dark-skinned? Why?

Because they were visually established as such since the games inception and making them black contradicts the established unspoken lore that the game engrained in us. If the developers found a proper way to establish dark-skinned elves, like suggested by me, Azenteya and Brigante above, this would not be a problem as the lore is supplimented and worked around, not changed without explanations.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Take a look at where the blood elves live. They live in a land of eternal sunshine.

Read some posts above, I speculate on that and LITERALLY make it into a point FOR dark skinned elves.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

You have EVERYTHING in game to give you a plausible explanation as to why they can be black, but for some reason it’s not good enough? Because they were “only ever pale before”.

Not everything, but a lot of speculative things, but I guess it’s ok when you are speculating and not others, got it.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

I redirect you to the mag’har again. They were only brown, now some are grey. You offer “yeah well obviously the tribes grew up in difference places” (that doesn’t explain anything by the way, HOW did their locale end up making their skin grey? You haven’t explained that)

• Geyah once called the land of Nagrand itself “mag’har”, uncorrupted. Meaning Mag’har isn’t just a race by itself, but literally means uncorrupted orks. These orks were separated by different tribes, each living in their own separate piece of land on Draenor. The grey mag’har are the ones who had a more sedentary and enclosed way of life, devoted of much time outside (Shattered hand, Laughing Skull, Blackrock). It is also confirmed that Blackrock orks have their skin the way it is due to them living in a mountain forge by Jaina in, i believe, “Tides of War”? Correct me if I’m wrong.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Same for the pandaren and tauren “different places different skin tones” yet you fail to recognise that the pandaren and tauren that display these different hues ALL ORIGINATED IN THE SAME PLACE so that argument can’t work.

Not quite. Some hues were distinct to some tribes before they were united, I believe. After all, tauren are not a single tribe but a collection of many. The hues could have mixed due to tribes mixing together. Again, rather obvious, I don’t inderstand how could you not see this.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

All pandaren originate from Pandaria and yet they come in a myriad of colours, same for Tauren from Yaungol. So beyond a point we have to concede it’s simply naturally occuring variation that doesn’t have anything to do with their environment.

I am also adding this a part of an answer to the previous point, as well as this one: these hues are established from the begining and are acepted as a fact from the get go. They are also derived from IRL animals. They don’t need to have anything to do with environment. besides, skin color and fur color are two very different things. Will elaborate more when an opportunity arises.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Why can we not posit this theory for belf? Why can’t there be “simply black belf” like there are “simply blue tauren”?

Because blue tauren were established from the very begining of the game, unless you are talking about some new skin they got with a patch. Then it’s also quite weird, but you can easily explain it with a different tribe. This does not work with belves since they are all from the same city, they weren’t presented as dark-skinned from the beginning and are now getting a change that is wildly out of character.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

So the nelf that came over from Kalimdor were purple, blue, violet, near-black, peach etc, but somehow we’re expected to believe there is next-to-no variation in their skin tone when they became belf? Uuuummmm.

Good point. Here’s a counter one - they all could very well also become different shades of “white”. See my previous point adressed to you.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

There’s no explanation for why their skin changed as well. And none was required. Why did their skin turn peach? Surely we need an explanation? They went from a place of eternal night, to one of eternal sun, and we’re expected to believe they became pale???

I literally gave you an explanation - WELL OF ETERNITY, NOT THE SUNWELL. They lost their pigment due to severance from the well. Not just pigment, nut also had their physiology change, btw. And this one is actually in the lore. Do some research before posting.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

How come we don’t need an explanation for this, when it belies complete common-sense?

Because we have one already.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

If it’s just “sunwell magic did sunwell stuff” then what’s so hard to stomach about “sunwell doing random magic also made some dark toned”?

Becaues it is a fan theory, not the one that Blizz made canon. PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR IT TO BE CANON, TO GIVE US AN EXPLANATION AND NOT JUST LEAVE IT AS IS!

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

And the “they were always pale before” argument just doesn’t work. Once upon a time Orcs were green only, then they were brown too, now they’re brown, grey, white, black green, dark green, almost-blue

And each and every single one of these skin colors portray a different tribe of orcs, which is expressed in the lore from the begining. I am honestly tired of making this argument, Jeezus Christ.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

perhaps consider that the earlier sources that people refer to for “elves always being pale” alongside those that depicted orcs as “always green” were limited, and did not properly express the creative indications of the makers?

THEN CHANGE THE LORE, LITERALLY DO WHAT PEOPLE ARE ASKING YOU TO DO?! We are not asking to REMOVE the skin colors, we are asking Blizzard to GIVE THEM REASON AND VALIDITY BEYOND BEING A PANDERING MECHANISM!

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

Blizzard never had to explain why Orcs can be almost-blue, or almost-yellow once WoW was introduced

Because they explained it. Watch some pannels and interviews, Christ, AGAIN!

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

yet apparently we need an explanation why a blood elf can be a darker shade of flesh as opposed to just considering that maybe the game represents something they always thought to be true, which wasn’t represented well in earlier media?

ADD. IT. TO. THE. LORE. The reason I am mad is because it is obviously just to pander without any real effort. IF Blizzard really cared, they would give us something in terms of actual story, like how void-elves came to be. This, however, was just thrown to us like a moldy bone without any effort or meaning behind it. Stop simping for Blizz, you give them way too much credit.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

At the end of the day, the tone of elven characters and specifically their “dark-human” skin tones, and opposing them on some pedantic “but muh lore, but muh explanation” is a ridiculously dumb hill to die on

Not if that means that we get a better representation and some actual bloody content here, as well as hold a company to an actual standard. I start to get that you are under the impression that I want these skin colors removed, which is WRONG! I want them to make sense in the lore beyond just being left there without any explanation like a “now piss off” moment.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

There are a thousand areas of WoW lore to demand lore clarity that the game badly needs (like how the religion of several Priest races isn’t even elaborated on one iota, so you can literally play as a religion-centric class and have no idea what their religion even is!! Or how things that die “into the Light” seem to bypass the SL) but no, the fight picked just happens to be the dark skin tones for Belf. It’s laughable.

There are people mad about both. It’s just the fact that we can’t change SL, but we can change the dark-skinned belf lore since there IS NONE YET!

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

If you can overlook all the ill-explained crap in this game that really would benefit from an explanation urgently, you can sure as hell overlook this and just put it down to a commonsense “natural variation”.

Majority of these are explained through books, which is not perfect, I know, I, too, would rather see them in-game, but they are not nonexistent.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

EDIT: and Re the nelf points, you’re wrong. In WC3 Nelf were only ever depicted in tones of purple

And humans were only white,

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

then WoW comes along and suddenly they can be blue.

then WoW comes along and they can suddenly be black, olive, tanned, yellow.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

You state (fairly commonsense) that blue is on the same spectrum as purple. Yet I’d reply that the brown skin-tones are on the same spectrum as the pale ones. Yet oddly we need “more than this” for it to work for Belf, because upon nothing else other than the fact their skin resembles an IRL group.

Because they were never bloody dark skinned in the lore, and thus we need to have some lore CHANGED to ACTUALLY INCLUDE THEM, RATHER THEN JUST LEAVING THEM AS A DIVERCITY CHECKBOX! The fact that belves can now be black is a bare bloody minimum, they NEED to actually give a damn and think about the implications of drastic changes like this.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

If we suspend that for a minute, if we can, just imagine that RL Humans had…I dunno green skin, and we have Belf just as they are in the game right now, with their pale and tan and brown skin. Do we honestly think we’d be having such a contention over the fact their skin goes from “cream” to “brown” (which is on a single spectrum)? I honestly don’t think we would be.

We would, since purple and blue are rather similar and are fairly close on their respected spectrum, while white and black are LITERALLY OPPOSIT SIDES OF THE SPECTRUM.

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

People only ever kick up a stink about the races whose skin resembles RL humans.

Someone really forgot the draenei debaucle at the launch of BC…

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

I have never seen a single thread about how “stupid” it is Worgen can be blue (despite wolves not being able to be blue) or Pandaren being indigo (no such thing IRL) or Tauren being blue (Blue cows where?) or people moaning how it makes no sense Goblins can be yellow (despite always being green), all the ire is reserved for the human-tone races and to me, that’s the crux.

Because all these races can be easily explained by" different tribe, different cartel, natural skin tone variety that is present in the lore and is established FROM THE BEGINING.
WoW expanded Warcraft universe beyon its very limited RTS form and added a lot of nuance and detail, as well as some IRL logic to the game that is mixed with fantasy logic. Different shades and hues are part of the IRL logick, However it wasn’t, for some reason, established for Belves from the begining, so everyone assumed that there is a lore reason as to why they are pale. Blizz gave us a reason as to why they were pale, everyone’s happy (not quite). Then Blizz CHANGES belf skin tones and DOESN’T change their established “rule”, or “explanation” to justify the change beyond diversity. THAT is the problem. NOT the skin colors themselves, NOT the fact that belfs were established to be white, IT IS LACK OF EFFORT AT IMPLEMENTING A DRASTIC AND CRUCIAL CHANGE, THAT LEAVES A GOOD CHUNCK OF LORE DAMAGED!

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

I implore people to honestly ask themselves, be it “need lore for it” or outright rejection of the belf dark skin, if real-life humans didn’t have the skin colour we did, and were instead some strange colour like purple or red, do you think the belf skin colour spectrum would be of much of an issue as it is?

Most likely.
Now that I am finished with this wall of text, I urge you again to research before posting. You act like you know everything and frame every argument as a gotcha, but in reality you just don’t quite get where people are coming from.

[Гинир-gordunni]

@Yinzon-argent-dawn

apparently we need a special, specific and detailed reason as to why they can be black

Not a special reason, just one that is good.
P.S. Oh good, there is another wall, back to the drawing board…

[Yinzon-argent-dawn (Yinzon)]

This won’t be a long post.

But seriously, check yourself my friend. I checked myself earlier.

I climbed down on my tone, and your reply has been nothing short of a condescending attempt to talk me down and make several personal comments of me as an indeividual, which I never made to you, which serves no purpose other than for you to “pop shots”, it certainly doesn’t forward the discussion or make your points any better articulated. It just comes across as attempting to “i’m cleverer than you” the chat. Well cool, you’ve clearly done more “aroudn the houses” lore research than me. Props to you. I still don’t think it manages to make your claim of black belf being “of current” untenable in the lore unviable.

And for the record, the lore for Belf was changed. Chronicles retconned prior lore and changed their transformation from “to pale” to “lost their violet hue” nothing of which supposes they must turn pale. Chronicles is the most authoritative lore on the subject to date and that passage doesn’t preclude them being black.
Would we benefit from more? Absolutely, I don’t disagree with you there. But do we need more to entertain the notion of black belf? I don’t think so. If a dark purple nelf loses their “violet hue”, i’d imagine they’d turn a dark flesh colour. Hue has nothing to do with lightness/darkness and is specifically defined as the property of colour that corresponds to it’s distinctions from other colours without addition of tint or shade.

So i’m not sure what’s being asked for here, so people want the lore to be even more explicit than Chronicles is because they’re interpreting “lost their violet hue” (incorrectly) as “turned pale”? Chronicles is the most current lore sources on the subject, retconning and overriding the prior ones, and it says nothing about them turning pale. The precedent of belf “always being pale” was retconned the moment Chronicles was released. The fact we hadn’t seen dark-skinned belf is irrelevant, the lore on the subject was purposefully changed from “turned pale” to “lost violet hue” which immediately makes it plausible to entertain that not all belf then are surely pale.

[Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion]

@Гинир-gordunni

IT IS LACK OF EFFORT AT IMPLEMENTING A DRASTIC AND CRUCIAL CHANGE, THAT LEAVES A GOOD CHUNCK OF LORE DAMAGED!

It would be a mistake to try and explain why there are black elves, it would rob us of the opportunity to use our imagination.

I understand that there are those who feel that the difference between black skin and white skin is a big difference, and so there has to be a reason why an elf with black skin is hanging out with other elves that have white skin, because they feel that elves with black skin and white skin are separate from each other, and distinct from each other, and do not coexist or interchange, that black skinned elves and white skinned elves cannot be part of the same group if there was not some special event that brought them together. If a reason is given for this, then those people will only be disappointed, it’s better to let them have fantasies instead.

Sometimes it’s better to leave things to the imagination.

[Гинир-gordunni]

So I’ve read some more posts that I have missed and it would seem that we both misunderstood each others points. Props to you for calling me out on that and thank you for actually making me check twice and finally see where I was wrong. I certainly did cross the line at the personal points, sorry about that.

I shall now clarify my position like you clarified yours: I believe that a few vague “nothing” changes to the lore are not enough to justify a change of something that has been established for over 13 years. The changes that WoW team made with adding more skin colors for various races into the game are welcome ones, however we should be able to see beyond their face value and face the fact that these changes were not done in good faith. If they were, these changes would have been implemented with more care and respect to the established canon of the Warcraft universe. This was not the case, however, and the change was made just as the thing the name of the thread implies - a box tick. It is disheartening and takes value from the established foundation of the game without properly suplementing it. If I were to restructure a building, I would not change an old solid brick wall with new weak papier mache one. They could have executed this change much better than just a few vague unnoticable “fixes” to Chronicles, so unnoticable, in fact, that many people forget about them in favor of the old ones due to them being so old and reliable! By the way, thank you for reminding me of the Chronicles change, I genuinly forgot about it, which, if anything, proves my previous point.

The lore does not need to be expicit, but it needs to be more direct and understandable, with a variety of nuances and some wiggle room for possible change in the future. This time, the changes are welcome and that is the only thing shielding Blizzard from flack coming from the comunity like it did with the Draenei retcon. This is why we, as the players, need to hold Blizzard to a higher standart that they themselves set, unless the next time they make a drastic change to the lore, and it is equally as confusing and unclarified, there will be a lot more trouble, as the foundation is already collapsing on itself with Shadowlands.

[Гинир-gordunni]

@Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion

It would be a mistake to try and explain why there are black elves, it would rob us of the opportunity to use our imagination.

Both agree and disagree, the problem with this is that it’s a change to something that was cemented for over 13 years. Changes like these should be made with care and respect, which they weren’t. If they made some changes that left wiggle room for more imagination, that would be fantastic (saying that as a roleplayer).

@Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion

because they feel that elves with black skin and white skin are separate from each other

Also that. I would like to have a reason to not have them as separate, and have that reason in the lore.

@Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion

If a reason is given for this, then those people will only be disappointed

That is if the reason is incredibly specific. There could, and should, be a more organic way of implementing a change like this so that people have more room to customise their characters and their stories instead of less, or instead of wondering if this is lore appropriate or OOC.

All in all, there are some parts that I definately agree with you, but there are also some that I don’t. Still, I think you are absolutely right with this one:

@Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion

Sometimes it’s better to leave things to the imagination.

[Yinzon-argent-dawn (Yinzon)]

I don’t disagree with any of this post fundamentally and even if our exact positions on the matter don’t see eye to eye, I’m glad we could reach that difference in this way.

The fundamental point you’re hammering I support completely: blizzard doesn’t explain as much as it should. I don’t necessarily agree it’s pertinent for stuff like (some) skin tones but there is really big missed stuff for me. Like Vulpera can be priests. Religion is central to priests, but we know nothing whatsoever about their spiritual beliefs, so we can play as a race and class with no idea how it works!

[Гинир-gordunni]

Agreed. Actually, I remember how our Russian analogue for WoW, Allods Online, had this thing where depending on your race, your class gets a different name and meaning. It was amazing to see how “necromancers” for the living classes becomes a “savant” for the undead or “defilers” for the Xadaganians.

[Гинир-gordunni]

9.1.5 Promises more customization, so… Expect to see a lot more High Elves)))

[Azanteya-ysera]

Absolutely wrong. The Arabian culture zone stretches from the Arabian Peninsula to North Africa and the Horn of Africa. Especially people at the Horn of Africa have very dark skin. The ancient kingdom of Nubia, which provided generations of Egyptian pharaos was and still is inhabited by very dark Arabs. Then you have the Berber tribes and communities of Afro-Saudis and Afro-Omanis who date back as far as to the 3rd to 2nd millennium BC.

[Azanteya-ysera]

Lol, and the Tuareg? No Berbers? Crack a book yourself, you genius. And while on it look up the term ARABIAN world. You seem to not have a clue at all.

[Azanteya-ysera]

Nubia has been highly influenced by Arabian culture since times of Ancient Egypt and since then, the part of Arab heritage among the population has been ever growing. That’s an over 4000 to 5000 years old Arabian heritage we’re speaking of.

[Azanteya-ysera]

@Gìr-argent-dawn

Spain has been highly influenced by arabs. India has been highly influenced by iranians.
Are they suddenly arabs and persians? I fail to see your logic, Azanteya.

And I fail to see any sign of you actually having visited any of the countries you’re talking about.

When I say influence I mean they MIXED to a point where you have Arab folks with dark skin as a majority population. And while you’re great at citing all the North African Arab tribes with white skin, you don’t even waste a word on those who aren’t. Tuareg are the best example. They’re an Arab Berber folk with light to dark skin colours, all together, no separation. Somalia and Sudan are part of the Arab World, too btw., so how does your pretty little theory about white Arabs in Africa apply there, my dear? Tunisians aren’t white either. I grew up with kids from a Tunisian family and even visited their relatives in Tunisia. They all have the same skin colour as me and I’m the daughter of a Muslim Ghanaian father, dark as night, and a Catholic German mother, blonde hair and blue eyes. I stay with my statement that you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about.

Not to mention that objectively, Arabs were the first to enslave Africans and bring them to Arab countries long before the Europeans did. They’ve been living in Arab countries for literal millennias and became a partof the society. And they’re not a few handful either but thousands. But when it comes to naming them as part of the Arab society, they’re still treated like aliens.

One could come to the conclusion that racism has many faces with the only constant that dark skin gets treated like a disease within a community in each case. Does go for Asia as well.

[Gìr-argent-dawn (Gìr)]

Tuaregs aren’t arabs. They have nothing to do with arabs. Get that right. They emigrated to Maghreb about 80 years ago from western africa.

Don’t you even try, buddy. I am Algerian arab by blood. I know more about my home country than you do. My mother, who has literally hazel eyes and pink skin, is from Oran and father Bejaïa originally. I visit my mother’s hometown regularly and I have yet to see what you’re talking about.

Part ghanaian. Not surprised. Afrocentrist. What a surprise, really.

Thanks for the laugh, though. You’re hilarious.

[Azanteya-ysera]

No response taken to my comment on Tunisia, which you painted white.

No response taken to Somalia and Sudan being by definition Arab countries.

No response taken to Tuaregs being Berber folks really, who ALL ARE ARAB.

Labelling me Afrocentrist without knowing me just because it’s convenient for you.

My friend, the real laugh here, are you.

[Vaëyn-outland]

If you think too much, not much of anything in WoW makes sense. Applying real world logic to game is pointless. In game, races can be whatever. Better not to think too much hehe. The important thing is, Nelfs should be the only playable race.

[Shumensko-azjolnerub (Shumensko)]

Nope, I’m a goblin

[Cupìd-mirage-raceway]

I never say there needed to be one just that I would be happy if they gave one, and seeing as I was talking about the lore with someone there I saw it as a proper opertunity to bring up that there should be a lore explanation mainly becouse that would show that blizzard actually cares and have given atleast some thought to it. The grey dwarves have been in since vanilla. All units in WC3 were just reprensentations of what they were not actually any unique people (other than a few heroes) so we didnt know what skin colors they could have and with the skin colours introduced in WoW being there from the first time we could see more version of the skin colours they are base line acceptable. If belfs had brown skin as a option from the begining I dont think anyone would care at all about it.

[Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion]

@Гинир-gordunni

@Amirarinaldi-scarshield-legion

because they feel that elves with black skin and white skin are separate from each other

Also that. I would like to have a reason to not have them as separate, and have that reason in the lore.

What it comes down to is that some people think that a black person and a white person are fundamentally different and others do not, the same reasoning is applied to fantasy creatures such as elves in world of warcraft, and so if you put something into the lore of world of warcraft that says that they either are, or are not fundamentally different, then you will upset someone, so just leave it alone. Let them believe what they believe.

[Vaëyn-outland]

Once we establish this, we can discuss their eye colour. Hair colour too. And ear length.