But Delves have downsides already.
You can die. Which has downsides in and of itself.
When you die 5 times you don’t get the big loot.
That requires a certain mindset. A certain mentality.
Not everyone likes that sort of thing.
But that’s not relevant anyway, because Delves ALREADY present players with a challenge. Forcing players to restart from the beginning doesn’t present extra challenge. It presents extra annoyance. Extra time sink. No extra difficulty; since you can already get past that content.
The challenge comes from getting past whatever made you die over and over. THAT is what you learn from. Not from doing all the other stuff that came before that you already know how to beat. It’s a punishment that makes it unfun, and that’s really all it is.
I still think that having such a penalty in Delves is something good. At least for the first weekly completion (idk if you can grind gear and co from it).
For comparison, in Destiny 1 (one of the first online games I played with RPG elements), the “Nightfalls” (basically the equivalent to a Mythic+ dungeon) has a modifier that, if your entire team (or you solo) die, you have to restart the entire thing.
Is it annoying and punishing? Yes. Does it force you to improve and plan ahead of dangers? Yes. Does it make you a much better player over time? Absolutely.
As a few others said before, having Delves with such “limitations” in the long run will force players to adapt and improve. Meaning more competent players, meaning more players that actually learn how the game works, meaning less downsides for everyone in cooperative activities (if they ever join them as solos).
It’s a bit like going to the fitness center as a fat person (don’t get offended, I’m a bit fat myself rn). But instead of it being “optional”, you are being forced to do it. Sucks at first, but the longer you train, the more routine you build, the easier it gets and the more fun it becomes.
The restriction of only 5 deaths stifles experimentation.
Ultimately, people will increasingly rely on Wowhead guides and purchasing boosts. This trend would occur even without the death count, but the makes it more likely.
Also, with delves, buying a boost from just one person is sufficient. I expect a lot more people to enter the boosting stage in TWW.
And that’s exactly it… The vast majority of those people will not take part in cooperative activities where that matters. This is why ‘we’ are getting this new endgame pillar. So we have our own thing to do and we no longer have to join those other activities unless we really want to (and that’ll be few and far between).
That’s what I meant earlier in this thread when I said that they’re not making these changes with their target audience in mind. These changes do NOT benefit that part of the playerbase. They benefit people that already have 3 available endgame pillars. Put all the punishment there; make those people learn. THAT will benefit them.
But no; as soon as that content gets more punishing, then all of a sudden it isn’t a good thing and people complain. It’s hypocrisy of the highest level.
While a valid reason, I also don’t think solo players should have a super easy way to better gear without being challenged.
Ok, on paper those changes sound horrible. But wait til they pushed it live in 11.0, give them time to find the right mix. Eventually, it will end up in a good spot.
What’s the downside in raiding? The difficulty? Not every mode needs to punish you. This could’ve been similar to islands or something with collectibles and maybe gear. I don’t understand why they would add a death counter here it’s feels utterly pointless. You want a game mode where your punished for dying? You have m+ and arena. This is aimed at world content players right? So why would they make it even harder for people like them to get into
Because if Players would get the same gear as a Normal raid or a mythic+ dungeon, while having LESS difficulty, would negatively affect the other core activities in endgame content by leeching on their player pools.
If you ever heard the term “path of least resistance” in gaming, you know what I speak of.
For example, why waste several weeks trying in a Mythic raid, if Delves (idk if they do, but let’s assume for this example they do) can give you the very same gear with less difficulty AND while playing solo all by yourself?
People then would less participate in Mythic raiding, endangering the already quite small player pool of that difficulty.
Let’s say for another example, that Delves give the same rewards as Mythic+ and can be repeated with a chance for loot (just like Mythic+) but with less difficulty and while solo.
People would then rather play Delves than Mythic+, making it harder to find groups for Mythic+.
You start to see the issue?
Leaving too much freedom to people will result in people breaking the game to their benefits. No matter if it is a broken item/rare spawn or less limitations of a gamemode.
After all, there are many prime examples in gaming of people rather doing the easy, repetitive, boring content for quick progression than the harder, fun, more rewarding activity.
Okay and there’s no reason it should give gear that high up. That’s what I’m saying. Plus the “casuals” will get to a point where they can’t progress even with more gear. That’s probably not even close to the max scaling of delves too. So no matter how easy it is it’ll get nerfed to oblivion anyway removing any semblance of challenge. ( you think I’m being paranoid look at the complaints about raiding in df. Muh too hard can’t progress when it’s not much harder then usual)
I agree. But as I’ve explained several times before in this thread; this particular punishment doesn’t actually add challenge or difficulty.
Let me illustrate this with an example:
You are tasked with painting a portrait of Harry.
To do so you buy canvas, some paint and a brush. Easy stuff.
Then you start painting, but it’s hard! You just can’t get it right.
After 5 attempts all your bought supplies disappear and you’re told: Go buy them again and then you can attempt more.
Getting those supplies again doesn’t actually add any challenge or difficulty to the task. What is does do is add irritation. It’s a nuisance.
I am FOR difficulty where appropriate.
I am AGAINST punishment that only creates irritation and serves no real purpose.
Well, I’ve seen WoW development enough to know that when I see a change I don’t like, I should complain about it early and often. Because if this goes live, it won’t be changed until enough people have complained. And that is my worry: The target audience of Delves generally are not the kind of people who post complaints about a game. So this will only get traction from people who are not the intended part of the playerbase and thus create a false idea of how people feel about it.
This is a change that people who do high end endgame content generally like. Because it fits their mindset, their way of playing the game. But at the end of the day Delves will only be a supplemental way to maybe upgrade a slot that just hasn’t dropped for them. They will ruin this system for the people it was actually meant for.
And that’s exactly WHY Blizzard put that in to force players to improve their own playstyles. Because if they don’t do it voluntarily to progress further than their lowest effort, then they have to be forced.
Speaking of “forcing”, that situation reminds me a lot of Illidan saying “sometimes the hand of fate must be forced”.
That’s a bad example, because that is how life works? At least, if you didn’t buy enough paint.
I hope those rewards are worth the limitation they set, cause i see no point in putting a limit when there is nothing worth warranting this restriction.
Again, there are better ways to make players want to improve than by introducing a death count. A death limit actually stifles experimentation with different talents and specializations and hastens the way towards a wowhead guide.
Why do this , do not allow elitist to ruin . Bad idea the death limit all of the sudden, you lose the mode and can not do anything to finish your exploration . Instead, make unlimited death , and , if your mob has 60% health before you die , when you come back , they are in 60% health . Time to ignore stupid elitist and make World of WarCraft GoodGame again
