I’m someone, who has played M+ on higher levels since Legion. I’m also someone who every expansion plays multiple characters, to gear up, to keep up to date etc. This drags me into a lot of pugs of M+ and so on…
Delves, it’s an excellent idea for TWW, it’s something new and fresh. But… Hear me out. It will never work, the way it is now.
Why?
Cap of 11 tiers, where tier 11 gives the equal loot of a +5 M+ dungeon.
First of, what’s good with it?
You can play solo, you don’t have to sit in LFG and find people, or depend on people, or need specific setups or w/e and so on.
It’s simple gameplay where you can play w/e you want and whenever you want.
It’s similar to M+, it’s fast paced, it doesn’t require too much time.
YOU CAN PLAY IT SOLO
Why will it FAIL, if it remains the way Blizzard has currently designed it?
It will be irrelevant for anyone who actually wants to gear up fast. Anyone playing in raiding guilds etc. and so on. It will not be a good pick at all.
It’s basically only for achievements and its rewards.
It’s designed for CASUAL PLAYERS ONLY.
a) Because it’s designed for casual players, it will not attract casual players at all.
b) Reasons because it will not attract casual players, are: They will not be carried by others, making it too difficult for them to play the higher levels solo. And those who manage it, will rather want to play m+ as it will be more rewarding.
How do we solve it?
Make it uncapped, remove the cap of tiers. This makes no sense, as to why we got 11 whole tiers to unlock, only to receive the same ilvl loot as we get from normal mythics up to +5 dungeons, that’s basically doing 4 dungeons. While you end up doing 8 Delves for the same rewards.
Make the rewards and difficulty equal to M+. Maybe bring vault rewards from completing them as well?
Reasons why, are many… One reason is, as I know many of you will agree with, is that doing M+ on both higher and lower levels, are insanely frustrating, as you have to deal with up to 4 other people. Most of us pug! That’s okey… But when people don’t understand the mechanics, they wipe your key, and then you end up having wasted your time more or less.
Playing with your friends or team in m+? having to coordinate times to log-in etc? Sigh… Well, then Delves are a good option too, as you can play it whenever you want, SOLO.
This would make it relevant content for both casual players and high-end players, to just play solo as well.
If Delves stays this way, it will end up even worse than Torghast. Not like the Mage towers. But simply content that no one does more or less at all. People will more likely go into it with full mythic raid gear etc. and complete it fast for achievements, than go in there to gear.
hmmm… Had a discussion about this in trade chat actually the other day… trtuh be told I ended up turning around and seeing it the way trade chat proposed.
I had hoped delves would be an true endgame pillar that was on par with m+ and gearing.
But if we did that then grouped content would become obsolete. Why do m+ if you could just solo Delves instead?
But you want delves to be an alternative way of gearing up faster I take it? You want it too be a good way to gear somebody up for m+ But you think the 11 tiers are going to make that pointless.
I think the reason delves are this way. Is because Blizzard still wants grouped content to be the way to go after all. Too play with others. And not reduce the game to a single player game style.
If they made delves too powerful and rewarding… And faster and easier to do than group content. Why even play with other people? I don’t think that’s blizzards intent with delves.
Not faster than m+, m+ is already slow as it is and requires more RNG than a 30man raid. Just equal.
Well, Delves can be done by 1-3 players. Some people just want to play alone. I’m for starters, insanely sick of having to play with 4 others, where 4/5 M+ keys ends up getting depleted and disbanded because someone refuses to do mechanics. It’s insanely frustrating to have someone leave on last boss after having spent 30-40mins in there.
Also, it wouldn’t remove M+, but just be a simple option. Some people only do raids. Some people only do M+. Some people only do Arenas. Some people only do RBGs. Some people only do open world content. This wouldn’t exactly be something new to the game, else than just additional content and a new way of playing.
Also, if they want people to play together, they shouldn’t allow a massively abused report system to auto ban and silence everyone left and right.
Delves are an alternative to M+ for players who don’t want to M+. Most of us who do not do M+ (or in my case any grouped content) will have something to do.
In 10.2.5 I geared up in Open World content and it took months to acquire the gear (I kept getting gloves for some reason). Then even more months to upgrade this gear, crests and stones are not good in open world content. Not sure anout 10.2.7 as I’m sticking with my 463 gear til Prepatch, the tedium of gearing last time has just put me off gearing again.
If I do play TWW I am hoping that Delves will be quicker. I don’t want to be geared in 2 weeks but 2 months really should do it and in 10.2.5 it was longer than that.
I might not make tier 11 but that’s ok. I’ll get as far as I get. I’ll be happy with that.
They will have to iterate the effort / reward ratio over time. If tier 11 is too hard for players who need that gear then they’ll either have to up the rewards in lower tiers or reduce the difficulty.
If the only players who can complete tier 11 are those that are well geared from M+ then the system will be tuned poorly. It should be achieveable in Tier 9 or 10 gear (don’t know how the rewards work).
But all of those involve playing with other people… I don’t know. We’re playing an MMO game not a single player game… And blizzard shouldn’t design the game to take away players from playing with others and make it closer to a single player RPG.
Else wow would loose allot of the aspect of what an mmo feels like an mmo. If you never have too engage with other players again.
I think this is what blizzard has in mind. When they make delves… They want Delves too be a stepping stone for players into the endgame and too join the rest of us in grouped content. Too make the step easier… But it’s not intended too be a full replacement.
Well, it has already lost its MMO aspects, as people don’t even dare to use the chat anymore. Haven’t you noticed how silent for instance, raid groups are? Or M+? There’s simply no communication. And if you try to communicate tacts/route or w/e, people tell you to simply shut up etc.
It should at least be an option for those who wants to play it that way. Not exclude people, as they’re all in for diversity with transgender characters in the WOW universe.
Do you run into Transgender and diversity issues in your chat very often as you run m+?
Come on… No you don’t obviously. My bet is you wanna vent out on people when something goes wrong… And now days you don’t feel like you can do that anymore…
But you know there are ways to say things and let players know they have made mistakes without being rude and ‘‘In your face’’ About it…
And not gonna lie… Being told you suck in a family friendly nice way hurts even more xD
Saying “well that’s your fault, thanks for wipeing” is apparently toxic behavior and gets you banned. A lot of people refuse to even use the chat in the most recent expansions, because everyone’s scared of getting banned.
Back in TBC, WOTLK, Cata, MOP, even WOD, people would communicate and no one cared in what kind of language it was.
People also used to ask for help, if they didn’t know what to do.
That’s not the case today. No one, wants to talk. Of course, I’m sick of playing with others, and you can see multiple other posts regarding M+ for instance, that others are too.
I had a guy who said “wow you toxic idiot”, after I simply said - Why didn’t you ask about what to do on this boss before?
People cared dude… But replying or talking too people this way is too put people down and make them feel stupid.
Back in the day. People would almost expect you to have done all the youtube videos and all the guides and just done allot of Homework before even stepping into endgame
It was illegal and rude too learn by trying… It was almost like you had to go trough a WoW school first and get good grades before you entered endgame.
And people still ask for help… I would say now more than ever.
And… hey if they don’t? Its not toxic too ask ''Hey X do you know whats going on here? I see your not doing Y and Z ‘’
They aren’t. All current grouped content is staying, nothing is being taken away.
Also you can play Delves with other.
This is just adding a new feature.
Also WoW has always, right back to Vanilla, had solo content. Professions are basically solo content. Questing is basically solo content, even if there used to be group quests.
Yeah I don’t get his argument either, he’s sitting there whineing that people wont play together. While people rarely do. Dude has clearly just started playing in the most recent 3-4 expansions though. Being wheelchaired through grouped content etc.
Uhh excuse me? I am not whining? And I’ve played since 2006 actually But this is still an mmo game… The literally meaning of it being ‘’ Massively multiplayer online’’
All of wow since its inception has been about experiencing our world and playing the game together.
I don’t know what suddenly got you combative against me. But this aint right.
But its fair too assume that Blizzard wants their endgame content and their world play to remain an MMO… Delves are not intended to take away players from grouped content… Thats all I am saying.
“Massive Multiplayer Online” is the term that MMO stands for.
MMO means a lot of people play online in 1 instance. Not together. If you want co-op games, there’s that too. An MMO is simply a game where you can be thousands of people playing the same game, together, or against each other, or simply alone next to each other.
Delves are currently intended, as I said, for low casual players. But the problem is, that it will not even be used for those. It will be used for simple achievement gaining and then nothing else. You can play Delves with up to 2 friends, it’s still a multiplayer option, IF YOU WANT TO. But being able to play SOLO, should be an option too.
You’re simply saying that Delves would demolish the “MMO” aspect. It wouldn’t. You can play with others if you want, it’s a 1-3 man content.
I am saying that if Delves works the way at least I gathered you intent as a ‘‘faster way of gearing’’ It would take away players from grouped content… The way I see it.
You also said you didn’t want it too replace M+ so basically… You want things too remain the way they are then? But you want Delves to become a new faster method of gear catch up?
By doing delves your way… You want the tiers too be removed or decreased. So you could easier reach a 5+ Item level of gear.
The difficulty on the alpha is currently harder than m+ is right now. At least as a healer, because you can’t put brann as a tank:
So you end up tanking everything. Mobs are hitting for quite a sizeable amount of your hp per white hit and there’s several of them pounding on you.
Here’s some hits from a tier 1:
I upped it to tier 3:
Getting white hit for 460k. Meanwhile, my heals are mostly healing less than those strong white hits, even serenity directly heals less than such a white hit. I have 3 million hp roughly.
Recommended ilvl for a tier 3 is 538, I’m 543 and I’m getting my behind kicked in, in them.
With the way it’s right now on the alpha, I don’t see how, lmao. I’m sweating harder in a tier 3 delve than doing a +12 key on retail.
They just slap a +200% more damage modifier on tier 3.
Only MMO that I played which needed groups for everything was D&D Online about 15 to 20 years ago.
It was awful. You couldn’t do anything solo, so you had to find groups to do everything. And you needed specific classes too. You didn’t simply need tank, healer and some dps. You needed a rogue to pick locks and disarm traps. You needed a mage to bypass magic barriers. You needed priest or paladin for undead.
WoW has alway had loads of things to do whilst solo.
A lot of players are more-or-less solo full time these days as the PuG scene is so toxic now. Everytime there is a topic like this I see loads of posters who are solo players.
I agree with you Gram… And I want there too be more solo game content and character progression to do in wow…
Trust me I hate how retail has become where pretty much everything worth while doing? Is basically m+ and raids… And I want more content for us all to do…
But WoW was built and always was differently… And I guess I am just against things that would take players away from what we currently have group content for.
At the same time I do want more single content player stuff as well to do. Heck eventually… Allot of times? I get my fill of raiding and m+ But I still wanna play wow…
But there is like nothing worthwile doing…
I want more character progression for us all to do… But bottom line is I don’t want it so much that it takes away players from grouped content that makes us all play together.
I don’t think this will take anyone away from regular group content.
Even Folloer dungeons won’t take away from those that do dungeons anyhow. Becuase they’re slower than real players (unless you have the worst group ever) and don’t do Mythich level.
It’s just… if Blizzard really ended up making Delves a real Endgame pillar? Like with tiers and levels that rewarded the same level of endgame gear as M+…
If they where a faster way to get gear than grouped content does. There is no way around it or question… It would diminish the value from m+ gaming… And most people would just do delves instead.
Op didn’t say that is what he wanted though… He wanted it too be a quicker way of leveling of ones gear. But even then? We might as well remove all mythic levels from 2-5 then?
Cause everybody will just get that gear from delves instead.
Do you run into Transgender and diversity issues in your chat very often as you run m+?
But this is still an mmo game… The literally meaning of it being ‘’ Massively multiplayer online’’
