No, i get your point, without you being a pretentious smarta… but i don’t agree with your solution.
The rng of rtb was largely fixed with count the odds, simply removing grand melee would mean that you can no longer get that buff which would mean that you can only get the others which are better, but that’s not the solution that i would like the most.
The actual solution is making grand melee better.
You both are arguing whether you take a step to the right or a step to the left to dodge some poop on the ground.
It’s the same just fix the useless buffs either removing or reworking.
It wasnt my idea at all. I simply notioned said what it would lead to.
In response to this part by Ostara;
Which is not actually true, because RTB would become stronger, not weaker.
Outside of that I very specifically mentioned
thank you for this information, I don’t really play Outlaw so I did not know the relative strengths of the RtB buffs.
To add to the discussion, the design of RtB is centered around luck. If all the buffs are perfectly balanced between each other, there is no satisfaction when good buffs show up, and no dissatisfaction when bad ones show up, so there is no more “luck”.
Rather, I think it would be better to have a competitive playstyle to it, for those who do not wish to roll the dice. For instance, the return of the Bandit’s Guile mechanic in direct opposition to RtB would settle the dispute between Old Combat and New Outlaw, provided neither is so vastly superior to the other that only results in the illusion of choice.
They both solve the problem, but it’s not only about solving it, it’s about the approach.
You have to look at the problem, sometimes the answer is to fix, sometimes it’s to remove, in this case i think the answer is to fix.
Especially with the addition of count the odds, which effectively removes the big problem that rtb used to have, which was unmitigated rng.
Something else also came to mind, outlaw mastery should increase both the damage, and the proc chance. Not just the damage. Re arrange the values so mastery doesn’t become way more valuable than anything else, but mastery is pretty much always the least desired stat for outlaw anyway.
lols have no clue have to play sub rogue no more thz to all this talents in talent tree …
neader does the pro
wut?
/10char
After the latest changes, two things i’m mostly “concerned” about for the Sub tree.
Dance is now something all specs can choose to take. So i don’t find it right to have Dance in teh sub tree for the second charge in a place where it’s mandatory to take. I know “danceless sub” may be a meme build but i’d like to have the option tbh. Dance should be swapped with Shot in the Dark since all Dance synergy talents are on the left side of the tree.
the removal of Garrote as a class talent and now becoming exclusive to Assassination. With Dark Brew being a thing Garrote is absolutely a great tool to add to Sub arsenal. Either make it a Sub talent or even better baseline for the Sub spec aswell.
EDIT: there’s still the issue with the Sub tree were you can choose to get Stiletto Staccato but you don’t have Shadow Techniques, making it a wasted talent. That should be addressed.
not if you make the following two changes:
i got you fam
Yeah, I also want to dance less in DF.
If we really can’t get Garotte on Sub that’s fine but can we then get Hemorrhage back?
Also please put Deepening Shadows (Dance CDR) lower in the tree so it’s harder to pick up. Make Frequent Dances a choice you can opt into instead of something that’s just given near the top. Right now it’s right after Shadow Blades and feels too easy to pick up such a strong talent.
Getting to Dance twice as often feels much stronger than Dark Brew which is now a bottom row talent, especially as it multiplies with the Dark-, Lingering-, and Shadow Mist talents after it.
P.S. nice to see Flagellation’s secondary stat changed from Haste to Mastery.
you might want to have a look at the sub rogue tree in the first post
I dont have access to DF yet so im only commenting on what ive seen in the rogue (specifically assa) talent tree.
As it is now an assa rogue can only really do decent aoe if others arent doing that well as we still rely mainly on dots and having anyone in the group where the bulk of their aoe damage is instantly offloaded ( which is basically every class) we have no chance to compete.
Flying Daggers increases Fan of knives range to 15m and + 15% damage if 5 or more targets.
This sounds like the 1st version of the previous azertite trait ( which i believe was 20m range) which was useless in that it could hit/pull other groups because the range was so big and was later completely reworked.
The second variation would make a 2nd mini FOK spawn for any mob that recieved a FOK crit. Potentially leading to some nice burst aoe . I had this stacked to 3x and could often hold my own for bursting aoe. Please blizz revert Flying daggers to the 2nd version of the old azerite trait.
Crimson tempest is an ability that has instant damage and a dot component ( it crits for 5-6k which is lol compared to other frontloading classes). Please remove the dot component and increase the instant damage component and better yet why not make this do aoe envenoms or something that is poison that benefits from poison buffs.
Right now assa rogue is bottom of the totem pole for melee specs in M+ because of poor aoe.
Hi everyone, first of all, i know there’s already a topic about Rogue feedbacks from Dragon flight in the Dragonflight Beta Test forums, but i can’t post there (no idea why).
So here are some feedback / ideas from the french Rogue forums regarding the Rogue tree and the Subtlety / Assassination tree. We decided to post here because we know the French forums won’t be heard by Blizzard.
What you’ll read is mainly from me (i have been playing as a Subtlety Rogue in pve since 3.3) and Barøux (who’s almost exclusively a pve Assassination Rogue).
I must warn you, it will be a long read so… I could apologize but i’m not even sorry:D
As for the rogue tree :
Garrote could fit in the Subtlety rotation because of Dark Brew and it could be used in Outlaw too (depending on numbers).
I’ll talk a bit later about Improved Sap, but having both talents reduces Sap cost by 120 %, so…
Assa and Sub both already have Shadowstep in their tree and Outlaw has Grappling hook, it would make more sense to have it this way (instead of 2 ShS charges in Assa / Sub and Grappling Hook + ShS in Outlaw).
As said before Improved Sap doesn’t make sense as we already have a talent reducing the cost earlier in the tree. Additionally, a lot of Rogues currently play with Cheat Death, having it so far down is a bit of a pain.
3 points for Alacrity is way too much, 1 should be enough but we would need 1 or 2 more talents to balance the points.
Anticipation brings more flexibility with combo points and is, in my opinion, an interesting talent for our 3 specs.
FW has always been a Sub talent, it shouldn’t be available to all spec. Vial of Unseen Poison would be a good alternative to FW as well as make the rogue a bit more demanding.
Just like FW, ShD has been the identity of the Sub spec for 14 years, making it available to all specs leaves a bad taste, especially when Subtlety doesn’t get anything new. Fangs of the Father would be a great talent, fitting the 3 specs (and getting back a power we obtained from Wrathion when we’re about to visit the Dragon Isles would make sense).
Now for the Subtlety tree :
Backstab should have a pretty high critical rate, it should give us a good energy regen. And i’ll talk about FW later.
Just like for Improved Backstab, i’ll talk a bit later about FW. The buff is here to compensate the bonus damage on Black Powder that will be lost on Shadowed Finishers.
Weaponmaster is just random (i hate random) so by replacing it with Hemorrhage, i offer more controle on the rotation and some raid utility for the Subtlety spec.
For the change on the duration, i don’t really now, it feels a bit long to have a 9s ShD, but i still haven’t been able to play DF so maybe it feels good as it is, 8 seconds seems fine.
Gloomblade is basically backstab without the positionning requirement, i never understood this talent, Backstab might as well be buffed.
Once again, less randomness and more controle.
Shadow Blades is not that great whereas Shadow Reflection WAS great and would really fit the spec.
Veil Touched can simply be added to another talent (Deeper Daggers for example). To have Find Weakness here makes sense as it is directly linked to Shadow Dance and the increase from 20 % to 60-70 % is justified by the much lower uptime of FW (you’ll understand later).
We already have an aoe finishing move earlier in the tree, i don’t see how it can still exist.
Having SoD generating energy over 5 seconds feels a lot smoother than 1 big spike of 40 energy.
This change would make ShD have a single charge, as it was before, it’s supposed to be a burst spell, but if you’re always using it, it’s like you’re not bursting at all. Reducing Vanish’s cooldown makes more sense, it allows to have a better uptime on FW and it really fits the spec’s lore (going in and out of shadows).
Shadow Techniques and Shadow Blades being removed, having the energy regen of the spec on SnD with this talent makes sense.
Lower uptime of FW means less use of this talent, a buff is needed.
A second charge of Vanish + the cdr from Deepening Shadow would be too much.
Deeper Stratagem (8-4) : Creation of a choice node between Shadowlaced Armaments and Banshee’s Blight.
As Deeper Stratagem is already in the Rogue tree, it needed to be removed. The idea here is to either empower the CP generators or the finishing moves.
The shadow bonus damage on backstab is already provided by Gloomblade, there’s no need to double it. This change allows Backstab to have some good damage and should synergize well with the Vanish cdr.
And unrelated to the trees, i would change the mastery to : Increase the effectiveness of your finishing moves by x %, except for Kidney Shot.
It would revert back to how it was during Cataclysm and now affect SnD.
So this was my take on the Dragonflight Subtlety spec, i tried to give my thought process for every changes and i honestly think that this version of the Subtlety spec would be far better than the current or future DF version.
And now for Barøux’s ideas :
About the Rogue tree :
Creation of bridges from Blind to Evasion and Blind to Cloak of Shadows (1-2 to 2-1 and 1-2 to 2-3).
Improved Sap (5-3) : Deleted and replaced with Cheat death
Improved Ambush (6-4) : Deleted and replaced with « So Mastery » : Increases mastery by 2 % / 4 %.
Marked for Death (7-1) and Cold Blood (7-3) switch back places.
Leeching Poison (8-1) : Now also works with Instant Poison.
Alacrity (8-4) : Removed and replaced with Initiative : Haste increased by 1 %/2 %/3 %. Cheap Shot, Ambush and Garrote have a 33 %/66 %/100 % chance to generate an additional combo point
Cheat Death (8-5) : Replaced with « Ghost Shell » : Cloak of Shadows restore x % of your maximum health for each magic effects removed or resisted for the duration of Cloak of Shadows.
Vigor (9-2) : Creation of a choice node between Vigor and Thistle Tea.
Echoing Reprimand (9-3) : Replaced with Serrated Bone Spike.
Thistle Tea (10-1) : Replaced with « Improved Combo Point Animacharge » : Combo points generated with Seal Fate are now animacharged.
Resounding Clarity (10-2) : Replaced with Deathspike.
And for the Assassination tree :
Cut to the Chase (3-1) and Elaborate Planning (3-2) switch places with each other.
Improved Shiv (4-2) : Now also increases your bleed damage.
Exsanguinate (5-5) : Removed and replaced with 2p Soulblade set : Shiv causes enemies within 15 yards to take 40% increased damage from your Poisons and Bleeds for 9 seconds.
Flying Daggers (6-1) and Doomblade (7-4) switch places with each other.
Lethal Dose (6-3) : Replaced with Serrated Blades : Critical strike chance of your bleed effects increased by 5 %/10 %.
Poison Bomb (8-3) : Replaced with Lethal dose. Lethal dose changed from 2 points to 1 point.
Twist the Knife (7-3) : Removed and replaced by Poison Bomb. Poison Bomb changed from 2 points to 1 point.
Blindside (8-1) and Sepsis (8-5) : Creation of a choice node.
Creation of bridges from Lethal Dose (8-3 with the previous change) to Zoldyck Recipe (9-1) and Scent of Blood (9-3).
Serrated Bone Spike / Sepsis (8-5) : Replaced with Echoing Blades : Fan of Knives damage is increased by x. For each of the first 5 critical strikes, it will fire a second spray of knives at that location, dealing xdamage to enemies within 8 yards.
This second spray of knives always critically hits.
Zoldyck Recipe (9-1) : Now needs 2 points instead of 3.
Scent of Blood (9-3) : Now needs 2 points instead of 3.
Kingsbane (10-1) : Bonus damage decreased from 15 % to 7,5 %.
Indiscriminate Carnage (10-3) : Cooldown lowered to 1 minute and range increased to 15 yards.
Barøux is aware about the fact that if we need to use less points on several talents, we could take more talents on the side, making it a bit too strong, especially with the bridges between talents that he wants to add.
So we could have the points reduction and the new bridges or if it’s too strong, have one if the two (or create more talents but he didn’t have any ideas about what to add).
And that’s it, i really hope i didn’t make too many mistakes writing this and we hope to have some feedbacks from you on our ideas.
Dont touch my outlaw by your dirty hands, thugs
I’m not touching it.
So don’t try
I touched it, but just a little.
Ato, as I said in the US forum - very interesting and toughtful ideas about Sub spec.
I’m not trying, unless you’re talking about the fact that i want Shadow Dance removed from the Rogue tree, making it unavailable to Outlaw, then yes. But you’d have been the first to touch my spec 
Yes, i saw it and i’m greatful, i wanted to answer you but i’m awaiting feedbacks from Barøux about the Assassination spec (so that i won’t post twice in a row).
Please god remove marked for death out from behind 3 points of alacrity