I’m trying to draw a list of the differences between the two, and I need your help.
However , just so the topic doesn’t get derailed: Thalassian is indicative of high/blood/void elves and refers mainly to the civilization of Quel’thalas currently experienced by blood delves in-game.
Also Kaldorei civilization is Shal’dorei civilization. The night elf civilization is the pre sundering civilization that only Suramar and Eldre’thalas survived through the sundering. The alliance night elves called Darnassians, did not have a civilization during the Long Vigil, but are slowly returning to it since wow started.
Suramar is the only place in game you get to see Night elf civilization, and it is the civilization of both the kaldorei and Shal’dorei.
Any discussions on the merits and demerits of above can be made in another topic. This is not about similarities between nightborne and blood elves, or differences between void elves and blood elves.
Differences
Night, moon and stars vs Day and Sun.
The two feel very different because of this straight off the bat. I am drawn to silver’s, purples and pinks, and I love diamonds. The night elf night star and moon against a deep blue, black or ourple is aethestically different.
Compare that to Thalassian s which we see, gold and reds which is also pretty, but different.
Conclusion: They look different.
Primal. The night elves have a more primal feel, cats are more savage, they are often barefooted and half - naked around the city, compared to the Thalassian s who are often fully clothed and decked in a lot of gold Newbery.
Magic. The night elf ones seem far more arcane focused, and even when it was more mixed, their divine magic was arcane /moon light influences, and they had druidic magic. Currently Suramar civilization is largely arcane, but we saw nature magic from night elves and from the botanists - the Arcan’dor and Farodin play a huge role
Compare to Thalassian, it has arcane but less intense. We have Light holy magic for famous Thalassian priests and spellbreakers as well as Paladins. There holy magic isn’t arcane influenced like the night elves. They also willingly accept warlocks, death knights and demon hunters who wield fel and void magic, although void elves are banned for void.
The night elves who wield nature magic, fel magic and death magic are all in different societies and don’t mix.
Night elf one was until Legion ended, very rank and title conscious and structured, this was the case in the highborne led society as read in War of the Ancients, and also shown in Suramar in Legion. The Darnassian night elves are far more egalitarian but were more rigid in gender roles.
Thalassian civilization seemed far more merit based and more equal. There was a king and council, but nothing like lowborne. If you were talented and applied yourself, you rose. You weren’t birth locked into station.
Nature love, superstion and omens/portents seem to influence night elf civilization much more compared to Thalassian civilization that has no evidence of the latter two. And while having evidence of nature love, it isn’t as evident as it is in night elf civilization judging from Suramar, Eldre’thalas, Darnassus for sure and the pre-sundering civilization described in War of the Ancients.
I always felt the Night Elves were heavily inspired by Native Americans and Japanese Samurai. Society, architecture, appearances, behaviors, etc…
The Blood Elves always felt like they were taken straight out of the French Renaissance period under Louis XIV, The Sun King. The similarities are endless.
The Night Elves have always felt more like a military organisation than a civilization. They’re always driven by whichever enemy they’re facing or preparing for, and they’re all acting under a self-imposed higher authority; The Goddess, The Dream, etc…
The Blood Elves are a straight up monarchial rule – without a royal monarch though – concerned with their own kingdom and its grandeur.
Ah, people felt that because of their wooden architecture, it’s only part of their style. Blizzard used a more greek/roman style for their civilizaiton - which you see reflected properly in Suramar and Zin’Azshari, however for the Long vigil era, when they didn’t build a civilziation, they would only build lodges and small homes.
If you also note, this style is also used for the high elves as well (see Loch Modan and Hinterlands for example). Which means that it is an elven rural home. Quick, easy to set up.
Most of the night elf places that use them are either very old dating to long before the sundering (winterspring) or very recent i.e. just after WC3 (Auberdine /Astranaar) and are more temporary style lodgings…
When they shift to actually building proper buildings, like the Temple of Elune in Darnassus, they replicate the pre-sundering archiecture. Which is a stong indicator that if night elves now build a proper city, especially with arcane magic back, it would be like Zin’Azshari and Suramar and Cathedral of Eternal night and Temple of elune level… but rural forest homes would be like the elegant wooden cottages you see in Val’sharah.
This is very astute. The blood elf architecture and civilization is only fleshed out after WC3 and the introduction of the night elves. Prior to that in WC2, they had a far more high elf Tolkein esque approach.
When they created the night elves, and then tied the high elves to that past, i think this when the night elf civilization and blood elf one was envisioned.
Architecture wise, Silvermoon is very unique looking, Suramar on the other hand fits more the French/Greek/Roman style architecture.
The story of the night elves in 7.0/1 in Suramar is a replay of the War of the ancients but is fleshed out after the French La Resistance of the 2nd World war - the story is so similar. The Nightborne are the Parisians, the broken Isle night elves the French country men and the Legion are the German invaders,
And so true about the night elves… whether that authority is the goddess, nature of the Queen or the Grand Magistrix.
In a way I found that was different the night elves much in a way a Kingdom is different to an Empire perhaps?
I am ofc referring to the night elves as a civilization now, so this is not Long Vigil night elves or Darnassian night elves, think more pre-sundering night elves, Shen’dralar highborne , Farondis or Nightborne .
This is true, but only since the Thalassians ‘rebranded’ themselves as Blood Elves, prior to that it was Blue and Silver that they used, which we can still see dotted around the place in High Elf locations. The symbol however is the same as the Blood Elves, almost as if it were a transitory motif between Kaldorei and Sin’dorei.
Yes and no, I’d agree with you on the fact that Kaldorei wear less clothes in general, but Thalassian society is not exactly prudish either, you can see this in some of the concept art, and also in game, with some of their statues being very scantily clad, generally though, they are more clothed, which is odd when you think of it, as Night Elf’s are naturally nocturnal, and it is generally colder at night, whereas Thalassians are diurnal -and- live in a Kingdom of perpetual Spring…You’d have thought it would be the other way around. A possible explanation could be that subconsciously the Thalassian elves were influenced by their benevolent (at the time) neighbours, the Dwarves and the Humans, where people do tend to cover themselves up more, and also their immediate neighbours/antagonists, the Amani Trolls. It is possible that wearing less clothing is seen as something primitive, because of that connotation with the Amani they fought for so long.
One might say “Well, why the semi naked statues then?”
Well they are reminiscent of their past, perhaps. I mean we see that in our own world. One of the most famous statues in the world is Michelangelo’s ‘David’ Yet up until -very- recently you wouldn’t see that sort of thing on TV if it was a real person, its still a taboo now, and outside of certain colonies and beaches you certainly can’t go around like that without being arrested. Perhaps a similar cultural shift applies to the Kaldorei/Thalassians. “Its OK if its ‘Art’, but not on the streets”
Aye, the wooden architecture very definitely has a Japanese element to it, there is also the fact that their food tastes tend towards the Orient also, at least two of the daily Cooking quests refer to Rice Cakes, and another to Kim’chee, a Korean dish. The original buildings I always found quite reminiscent not of Graeco-Roman architecture, but the inheritors of Roman architecture, Byzantine style. The pillars and columns are still there, but also the graceful domes at the pinnacle. This would be a contrast with the Romans who very much favoured things to be square, efficient and not mess about.
Thalassian architecture however always struck me as more Persian and Arabic in nature ( though not the Elves themselves), Lots of spires and minaret shaped buildings, drapes instead of doors, lots of opulence.
They are quite different in many ways, but interestingly, you can see the cultural shift and how it happened.
Ah, yes, the Silvermoon rangers are quite scantily dressed, then jump to the void elves and you notice the same thing.
Eleven babe fantasy perhaps?
I think it is their arcane well connections…,the Well of Eternity boosted lifespan and health, which implies higher resistances, so I feel even with alternate walls like the Sunwell and Nightwell, this Carrie’s over, and the night group don’t change attire even with the Nightwell drained or the Welk of Eternity not used for spells.
We know for the long vigil elves, one of the blessings of the dragons afforded immunities like high resistance to the elements and magics, so they were sexy even in cold climates.
With the blessings lost, the higher end that protection gave them would have gone, however they are still made from the Well of Eternity and linked to it, which is why we likely see them so bare skinned in WoT and such.
Either that or at heart it’s just the sexy elf babe fantasy playing out, no deep explanations necessary
Culture and civilization are two different words for a reason.
They always had a culture and a society, but during the long vigil, that group lived without their cities and civilization.
It wasn’t needed during that era, they were dead focused on their Long Vigil Duty. They thought Suramar and Eldre’thalas lost, however those night elves just hid themselves
There is a difference between the way the Elves of the Alliance and Horde live, but this doesn’t lesser one to better the other.
Differences is what makes them cool and unique. It’s why I love the “Highborne” like styles of Suramar and Silvermoon and I appreciate the truest of Kaldorei style in Darnassus.
Nonsence - their civilization changed according to the new technology (druidism) they started using and philosofical differences they had with the old lifestyle, but they were certanly not without civilization. They still had highly complex social hierarchies and organized institution based government. Within their society they have trade, writing, permament settlements, specialised careers with division of labor and yes - a unique architectual style. Buildings made from living plants that are in balance with nature and require much less recourses than the stone buildings of old are, if anything, more advanced.
CIvilization is not the same thing as society and culture.
They had society, they had culture, they had no civilization.
Without cities, trade, organization for societal and cultural advancement, infrastructure etc, you have no civilization.
The Long Vigil night elves were not about building families, societies, advancement, trade, prosperity etc - which is what normal people do. They were all about the LONG VIGIL - guarding agaisnt and watching for the legion.
They left their cities in ruins, refused to wield the magics they needed to rebuild, went into isolation, and worked with Dragons and wild gods to fulfil their sacred duty.
Once this finishes in WC3, the night elves of that group go back to building or rather rebuilding their civilization, this is when they also choose to accept other night elves who continued the kaldorei civilization - like the Shen’dralar. Establishing Teldrassil then building Darnassus in a massive shift from the Long Vigil era.
The Long Vigil for that group of night elvs was not life as normal. This is one of the reasons Darth’remar’s highborne quit 3,000 years into it, they felt it was time to start rebuilding, return to civilization.
I don’t know about you, but I do not consider forests, and ruins, with only 1 village as civilization.
Now I’m not saying those night elves werne’t civilised, they totally were, they just didn’t have civilisation and weren’t trying to build/rebuild one during that period.
They had all these things. Just because Moonglade looks less like a stone pimple on the face of the caontinent does not make it any less of a city than Suramar. They still used trade inside their lands, they still havd roads and infrastructure to travel on both land and sea. And they still had advancements - just because they now studied nature and druidism instead of arcane does not make it any less of a cultural advancement.
They built new cities and used new magics. Sure they were isolated, but so was Japan for a long time. And how is working with gods and dragons indicate a lack of civilization?
Oh, and yes - society and culture at the level Night Elves havd are very much signs of civilization.
A civilizationis is any complex society characterized by urban development*, social stratification imposed by a cultural elite, symbolic systems of communication (for example, writing systems, and a perceived separation from and domination over the natural environment.
An urban area or urban agglomeration is a human settlement with high population density and infrastructure of built environment.
All of these characteristics of civilization exist for the Long Vigil Nightelves.
They had civilization, it just had (and has) changed from the one they had before the sundering.
The high population density may be contested, but i think moonglade and different settlements all over Kalimdor count.
The seperation and/or domination over nature is a weird thing with Nightelves, they are in a symbiotic relationship with it i think. They protect, nature provides.
I specifically remember the lore saying that Nighthaven was a village the Order of Elune led the night elves from.
When they visualised Nighthaven in WoW classic, it was a village too. And while we can’t take things according to scale, that was it.
They specifically said they had no other habitations… the point they were trying to make was this was group who had abandoned all the usual things of life to carry out a very important duty the safety of the world depended on.
They did this with 100% dedication because they were the reasons the Legion had found Azeroth and that there was this threat.
I didn’t like it at the time, but I made peace with it for 2 reasons. 1. Was because it was a story. The state of the long vigil wasn’t the end game, just the stage, and WoW started to build them up again.
I assumed the reason why we didn’t see any of their cities survive at the time was because they didn’t want to dedicate the art work to show that sort of stuff. WC1-3 was not the sort of game that showed off city art anyway.
Later I reconciled myself to the realization that it was part of the story anyway, not an excuse to avoid doing night elf art. Because eventually Eldre’thalas came, then Suramar came.
All this comes AFTER isolation ends. If you go to the bank in Darnassus after calssic, they point balnk tell you such things are of value to younger/lesser races.
There is no indication of trade, or infrastructure. Roads would exist from the pre-sundering era, Ashenvale though far from Zin’Azshari was still very much Night elf territory, and you see the ruins of several cities there anyway, as well as in Stonetalon, Desolace and Feralas, Darkshore has Bashal’aran, Ameth’aran, Lornesta and Mathystra.
Roads would have come from them.
I have seen no indication of this. And it doesn’t fit the story. What advancements? Where?
All the building - Astranaar, Auberdine, Darnassus, Dolonaar - all take place after WC3, when they come out of isolation.
THis is an ADVANCED race, that forewent building their lives and their civilization to protect the world. THis was their heroic sacrifice.
They did not forget their civilizaiton or how to do it. they just didn’t do it for several reasons.
The arcane was banned - their cities like Suramar, Zin’Azshari and Eldret’halas were all built combining the arcane magic wielded by highborne architects and nature magic wielded by Ancient druid tree (the night elf nature practioners did not reach that level of nature druidc magic advancement till after the sundering when MAlfurion rises to lead them.
Without the arcane, nothing coudl be rebuild - and the arcane could not be used FOR SPELLWORK because it was part of the measures taken to prevent the legion from returning.
I think they couldn’t even bear to look at the ruins - this is mentioned in several places, that they avoided their ruins, and let time and ruin claim them - reading their story, you would intuine it was very very painful for many. They were seriously griefing and hurting. They lost soo soo much, easier not to miss your amazing life if you don’t think about it.
b) Guilt too, the reminder that all they once stood for, life, health, elevation, advancement, that would transform their world into a paradise of perfection and beautythey eneded up through folly and hubris bringing the exact opposite. For a long while the ruins were a reminder of thier folly and the hard lessons they learned.
The guilt of what they brought would have the psychological affect of a self penance, punishment, especially in a soceity now led by priests. And you know how important penance is.
HOwever again, this would not last forever, nor should it, the time to mourn will eventually end, and penance give way to forgiveness and healing, but not while the long vigil lasted. We now see this happening once the legion is defeated in WC3, and we should see their exuberance and recovery greatly accelereated with the defeat of the Legion and the revelation they weren’t the ones to cause the LEgion to be interested in Azeroth because of their magic.
If you pay attention to their story, the night elves thought the Well of Eternity was what the Legion was after, and the only reason they found Azeroth and desired Azeroth was because of their magic wielding. So powerful and attractive it was, it drew them. Therefore this knowledge would cause a lot of doubting of themselves, resentment of their arcane legacy , and make a lot more people unwilling to wield the arcane and balme their abilities and talents.
Afterall, your greatest strength and greatest affinity you believe is the reason Azeroth is under such threat. So imagine how this changes when not only is the legion defeated in WC3, but totally ended in Legion, and the revelation that the Well of eternity was nothing but Loot, Azeroth was a dormant titan, and the planet was the target, but not only that, the elves didn’t cause the legion to learn of Azeroth, SArgeras already knew of her long before due to actions of the titans and had been intensely searching.
This woudl be a psychological load of many of the ancient night elves, and it would forever change the guilt/reticence/avoidance of fully accepting the arcane back some night elves, especially amongst preists and druids woudl have. The effect this should have on their society, is priests and druids oncce more okay about working intesnely with mages, rather than some generally avoiding. Those who want to regain their aracne affinity would have already done so when the ban was lifted in cata, and while this revealtion in combination with both the understanding and curing of arcane addiction would remove any stigma from the Darnassian crowd as a whole, it won’t casue dedicated preists or druids to switch to arcane, but rather open them fully up working with their arcane wielding kin and also respecting them as much, without stigma.
That is the thing, there is no evidence of this. The Long vigil era was a very unique era for them, I think psycologicall,y either by a sense of guilt or taking responsibility, they were willing to devote the rest of their eternal lives to guarding against the legion in Long vigil mode. Whether as penance, duty or a form of repentance, or all or combo of for differnt people who knows.
But it really painted a remarkable and striking image of their character. By this feat alone, I understood how these people built such an incredible civilziaiton that 10,000 years later, no one else had come close. Their level and standard of quality when they dedicate to something is absolute. They go all in, and they don’t waver.
It also made sense that an outside factor, like an illness (arcane addiction) could be the only explantion of how such upright perfectionists could get twisted. The night elves are modelled not as poeple who are flawed and make mistakes, learn and move on. They are modelled as the finished article, precise and accomplished in all they do. That the best of them, the Queen would falter as she did, meant it was more than just character.
WC3 had no evidence of new cities and new magics. WoW classic when it came out had no evidence either, Darnassus, Auberdine, Astrannaar were all newly built when the government moved west to newly grown Teldrassil.
My assumption was that they travelled in war camps, with tools like the Ancients, they could make mobile strongholds like you see in Feathermoon stronghold for 4.0 - smaller versions of this, just like you see the Ancients in WC3, growing bases, and when the night elves move on from one camp to another, the entire bases, gets up and walks with them.
For the smaller parties, it was constant camps, living of the land. It’s not civilization as normal, it would become as though normal, but they are people, not animals, they would remember real civilziation, and every time they remember it, they would remember the price of their folly and strengthen their resolve to maintain their vilgil.
Druids would adopt a different philsophy. Druids love nature anyway, so they would not miss civilization, cities or those things. This is fine. They won’t be building stuff, they had their barrow dens and slept for millennia.
Did you know most of the night elf males were druids? As the Order of Elune until after WC3 was near exclusively female?
This has several implications. The males slept for 1000s of years we are told, guiding the evolution of the world in the emerald dream dream. When are they going to have sex and make babies? And then the women are on the hunt most of the time.
This was not some broken or disparate people, forced to struggle in a post apocalyptic world, different race.
There is NO evidence of this. No evidence of urban agglomeration, population desnsity or infrastructure during the Long Vigil.
Really, I have not seen any, you have to point out to me. And trust me I SEARCHED.
One of the thing I was most excited to see when i levelled in classic was the fabled night elven civilziation the WotA spoke about, to see if the night elves had rebuilt any of it.
I specifically remember the lore saying all their cities had been destroyed or believed destroyed. And that only Nighthaven in Moonglade was the only village/town they had during that period.
All the stuff we saw in classic, is built post WC3, none of it is long vigil. And it correctly reflects, new settlements, and wooden mostly because the arcane is not back at this point. The one exception is Darnassus and the Temple of Elune, which proves that the night elves remember and know how to build their ancient civilziation architecture, however you don’t have much of it, whic is understandble, because they are still missing using their magic.
This made sense to me.
I find no proof anything more than sporadic cottages like the ones seen in Ashenvale or Val’sharah existed. No urban centres, and it fits the description of the period. Its intesneity and the focus of the Long Vigil Night elves.
and note, I keep saying the Long vigil night elves.,…because other night elves were around in night elven civilziaiton we now are made aware off. First Eldre’thalas, revelaed in 1.1, and then Suramar in 7.0
Are you truly implying that WC3 had no evidence of night elves using druidic magic? For real?
And roads are from sundering times? What did they just stay like that for 10000 years with no upkeep?
WC3 also had Ancient of Wonders - an ancient whose very specialty was trade and yet elves had no trade in their society?
No evidence of new magic developements? Pack form says hello. Sure it failed at the time, but it clearly illustrates that they experimented and developed new things.
And how is growing a city a statement against civilization? What, is stonework suddenly a higher priority for civilization than ecofriendlines? Goblins must be the epitome of civilisation in WoW then. Just because you dont like their technology doesnt make it any less of one.
Complex societal stucture is a far greater indication of civilization than some stone walls, and night elves have that in heaps.
Wtf !!? Where did you get that idea from? What did I say that made you even think I thought this?
I am referring to civilization- not culture, society or magic types.
Go to the bank in Darnassus on a young toon, speak to the banker there. Go find the WC3 manual on
Magic developed…nature magic, i.e. druidic magic blossomed to an art as prolific as they were with the arcane before the sundering. My bad if you think I said there were no magical developments, tha’ts not what I meant to say.
Where are you coming out with this? When did i say or imply that growing a city is a statmeent against civilziation?
If that’s what you got from what I said, let me correct it and say , that is not what I was saying. Maybe how i said it made it confusing.?
Growing a city is returning to civilization, not going against it. THe Long Vigil night elves were not against civilization persay imo at all, they simply didn’t develop or restore theirs due to the long vigil. This is the group that had the greatest civilization in the world. When they return to civilization, they are going to return to THEIR civilization - the one they had before. Which Darnassus seems to be along the lines off, a city built very quickly, but the first early steps of the night elves of the Long Vigil coming out of their isolation and Long Vigil mode.
My point was that no cities were built…not tree cities, nor stonework cities during that era. We aren’t shown any, we are told they did not either. They are presented as a group that goes head long into focusing on their new agenda. One that is not about themselves, or rebuilding their lives, but defending their world and helping reverse the damage the enemies they caused brought.
Society and culture ARE NOT civilization. I maintain, the night elves had a society, several in fact, the men had their own, largely druidic, the women had their own, Order of Elune, same with culture. But these things do not a civiization make.