Do other classes deserve buffs?

[Tarmugs-hyjal]

@Potatomilk-living-flame

You don’t think its even a smidge vile that ret paladin has a better version of the 150% damage increase for their primary attack, in a single rune with no strings attached?

Aren’t you tired of talking nonsense?

• Crusader strike is a filler that deals 75% weapon damage as holy and refreshes judgement debuff for 30 sec.

• Storm strike is a filler that deals 100% weapon damage as physical and 20% increased on nature damage for 12 sec.

As a filler SS increases shaman’s own damages (earthshock / lightning bolt / lightning shield / chain lightning), but also increases teammates damages (rogue/hunt/boomkin).

Stormstrike also benefits from armor reductions.
Crusader strike doesn’t benefit from any allys debuff except judgement of the crusader, which is another paladin’s ability and it increases holy damage by 161 (we’re far from the 20% extra nature damage).

Now the question is why is there a better option?
Because crusader strike is just a filler and nothing else contrary to judgement (if you’re not convinced just check wcl and where cs is on dmg list).

If you took the trouble to learn a little about the subject you’re criticizing, it would be helpful.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

The fact there is even a better option to choose is irrelevant to the point here, but it adds to the outrage since this better option existed last phase too, aka the templar rune or whatever it was called.

Come on do better than that please.
The templar rune gives the possibility to trigger judgement each time you use crusader strike.
The damages don’t come from crusader strike but from judgement.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

enhancement needs full 6p to use the flamebringer (lava burst) setup, and its a new thing only since phase 8 and i’ll be honest it does look bonkers.
before flamebringer build, for 2 phases straight, the stormbreaker (+150% SS damage) was the BIS option, which means its the 2nd best option until you are literally bis geared.
but again, this is kind of irrelevant to the point i was making.

Wait, you think it’s different for seal twisting maybe?
Ret seal twist has been stuck with 2p T2 + 4p T2 for a long time now.
2H Enhance is not the only one.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

ok, so here is the TL;DR of the point:
To get 150% damage increase for Stormstrike/Crusader Strike the respective classes must:

Shaman:

1. use T2 4p as mandatory rune on shoulder.
2. use 2x T2.5 - gear that is 2 phases old.
3. use a 2-handed weapon specifically, otherwise the damage bonus is ‘only’ 100% for SS while dual wielding.

Paladin:

1. use shoulder rune enchant.

The only one using this rune is wrath-like ret the other playstyles use other runes.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

Now that being said, surely you can see why the fact there is fewer requirements for an improved version of a very strong attack (one that ignores armor, is magical, and has 0 magic resistance against it due to being holy school) is kind of absurd.

All Stormstrike does, by comparison is serving as an extra attack swing with a 20% nature damage taken debuff tagged on, and its physical damage which is just flat out inferior to crusader strike in every way… like do you wanna trade? i’ll take crusader strike over stormstrike any day.

What I see is you’re crying over something that has no incidence in pve environment on either paladin or shaman (those runes aren’t used by top specs anyway).
If your problem is pvp then I would say only a few players use soul of the retributor in pvp.

@Taurosaurus-living-flame

Maybe you should train a little and take example on kefta

Maybe you should open your paladin eyes for once, look up from those 2 spells on your actionbar and see he got a personal healer on almost every video. Ofc a warrior can win if someone is spam healing him every fight.
His damage is around 200-500, he crit execute 1400 once “waow”.
Paladins faceroll 1500-4000dmg every global. Its INSANE

PvP in this game is thanks to Paladins and Balance druids.

Edit: I see hes fighting the same Paladin in 3 of his last videos. He is using every tool he can + Free action pot etc… [Velendis - Crusader Strike - Warcraft Logs]
That paladin is drooling on 2 buttons and still almost wins against this PVP god warrior.

Or maybe you should look more of his videos because there are many where he’s on his own.
Such as this one : htt_ps://www.yout_ube.com/shorts/FArds3wentg

So tell me now where are those great damages you speak of?
Warrior’s strength lies not in his burst but in his ability to constantly press his opponent.

Instead of trying to count 4-digit blows, you should concentrate on the frequency with which his blows rain down on his opponents.
But yeah, you’re right, I should definitely open my eyes after all…

[Potatomilk-living-flame]

Ain’t no way you’re trying to gaslight me into thinking Stormstrike is better than Crusader Strike.

its literally known to be the worst kind of melee attack ability in the game.
its the definition of a filler serving only to proc the shamans windfury (and maelstroms).
in vanilla classic in 2019 (maybe 2020) i wasn’t allowed to use stormstrike because there was a risk it would eat ignite, that’s how bad it is…

people have run the optimum opus in a setting where debuff limit is a thing, and they deemed that 20% nature damage so unimportant they would rather have the shaman not use his one and only attack at all.

oh and for the record, druid can do that exact same debuff for alliance in SOD, but nice try.
you have all the shaman utility on alliance at this point, the same cannot be said about paladin utility on horde.

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Stormstrike also benefits from armor reductions.

Crusader strike doesn’t even worry about armor reductions, because holy damage cannot be mitigated and ignores armor entirely, and its not like its the only source of holy damage paladin has access to either.

all physical attacks “benefit” from armor reductions, but that’s still inferior to ignoring armor reduction entirely, you know…

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Come on do better than that please.
The templar rune gives the possibility to trigger judgement each time you use crusader strike.
The damages don’t come from crusader strike but from judgement.

but without crusader strike you would have 1 judgement less, so in a way, you are wrong about that. its more like a crusader strike layered with vastly more damage attached.

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Wait, you think it’s different for seal twisting maybe?
Ret seal twist has been stuck with 2p T2 + 4p T2 for a long time now.
2H Enhance is not the only one.

again, that’s not the point.

@Tarmugs-hyjal

The only one using this rune is wrath-like ret the other playstyles use other runes.

ah, so there is indeed a place for it, and thus its relevant.

@Tarmugs-hyjal

What I see is you’re crying over something that has no incidence in pve environment on either paladin or shaman (those runes aren’t used by top specs anyway).
If your problem is pvp then I would say only a few players use soul of the retributor in pvp.

its not a matter of pvp, and saying that things that aren’t currently strictly meta for your spec are completely unimportant is a sub 100 IQ take.

[Taurosaurus-living-flame]

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Crusader strike is a filler that deals 75% weapon damage as holy and refreshes judgement debuff for 30 sec.

Haha hilarious, yea right.
Thats what i call it aswell when i hit 1200+ in PVP and crit 2-3k, Its just a filler.
Take a look at 2set T2.5(that got buffed last phase from 50% increase > to 150%)

Also there is T3 2set, T3.5 2set. (Divine storm 100% / 30% more holy dmg)
Alot of % increase

Afterall its just a Skill issue dying to these paladins.

[Tarmugs-hyjal]

@Potatomilk-living-flame

Ain’t no way you’re trying to gaslight me into thinking Stormstrike is better than Crusader Strike.

What are you talking to me about gaslight for? I pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of the two filler attacks and that’s all. You’re the one saying crusader strike is better than storm strike not the opposite.

These two fillers are the least represented on dps logs contributions, why are you still raging over crusader strike?

It’s not my fault if you get worked up trying to compare oranges and apples.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

its literally known to be the worst kind of melee attack ability in the game.
its the definition of a filler serving only to proc the shamans windfury (and maelstroms).
in vanilla classic in 2019 (maybe 2020) i wasn’t allowed to use stormstrike because there was a risk it would eat ignite, that’s how bad it is…

Just as crusader strike it’s a… Filler.
I still don’t see why you’re mad because those two fillers have no impact over the dps of both classes.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

people have run the optimum opus in a setting where debuff limit is a thing, and they deemed that 20% nature damage so unimportant they would rather have the shaman not use his one and only attack at all.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think there is no debuff limit in SoD, right?
So what’s the problem here?

@Potatomilk-living-flame

oh and for the record, druid can do that exact same debuff for alliance in SOD, but nice try.
you have all the shaman utility on alliance at this point, the same cannot be said about paladin utility on horde.

I know I play a boomkin, I just pointed out the benefit from storm strike and nothing more.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Stormstrike also benefits from armor reductions.

Crusader strike doesn’t even worry about armor reductions, because holy damage cannot be mitigated and ignores armor entirely, and its not like its the only source of holy damage paladin has access to either.

all physical attacks “benefit” from armor reductions, but that’s still inferior to ignoring armor reduction entirely, you know…

It’s a good thing cs doesn’t have to worry about armour reduction - it does 75% weapon’s damage, If it also did physical damage, it would be the worst possible attack in the game.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Come on do better than that please.
The templar rune gives the possibility to trigger judgement each time you use crusader strike.
The damages don’t come from crusader strike but from judgement.

but without crusader strike you would have 1 judgement less, so in a way, you are wrong about that. its more like a crusader strike layered with vastly more damage attached.

Oh the famous catch phrase “from a certain point of view”… I see.
Anyway it doesn’t change the fact damages come from judgement and not crusader strike.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Wait, you think it’s different for seal twisting maybe?
Ret seal twist has been stuck with 2p T2 + 4p T2 for a long time now.
2H Enhance is not the only one.

again, that’s not the point.

So why bring this up?

@Potatomilk-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

The only one using this rune is wrath-like ret the other playstyles use other runes.

ah, so there is indeed a place for it, and thus its relevant.

There is two.
One for wrath-like ret BiS (but one of lowest spec among paladin).
One for the transition between T3 and T3.5.

Nothing more.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

What I see is you’re crying over something that has no incidence in pve environment on either paladin or shaman (those runes aren’t used by top specs anyway).
If your problem is pvp then I would say only a few players use soul of the retributor in pvp.

its not a matter of pvp, and saying that things that aren’t currently strictly meta for your spec are completely unimportant is a sub 100 IQ take.

I still don’t see why you’re angry.

[Giveup-hyjal]

I am actually amazed at the amount of bad faith (lulz) coming from every paladin player in this thread.

Half the alliance is playing paladin, that’s all i’m going to say

[Nahmon-living-flame]

It’s more like 80% are paladin because it’s the easiest and best 1v1 class in the game

[Bubbleturd-living-flame]

Skill issue

[Tarmugs-hyjal]

@Taurosaurus-living-flame

@Tarmugs-hyjal

Crusader strike is a filler that deals 75% weapon damage as holy and refreshes judgement debuff for 30 sec.

Haha hilarious, yea right.
Thats what i call it aswell when i hit 1200+ in PVP and crit 2-3k, Its just a filler.
Take a look at 2set T2.5(that got buffed last phase from 50% increase > to 150%)

Also there is T3 2set, T3.5 2set. (Divine storm 100% / 30% more holy dmg)
Alot of % increase

Afterall its just a Skill issue dying to these paladins.

It is a filler ability just check wcl.
It’s like saying quick strike is a main ability because it can be increased with set bonus.

@Nahmon-living-flame

Exactly this and the idiots playing pala cry that they are nerfed when they literally 1 tap people

If there’s one class that should keep its mouth shut, it’s yours.
If you’re unable to deal properly against paladin it’s a skill issue on your side huntard.

[Moortee-living-flame]

The biggest problem here is the twisting. They should newer alowed it and paladins will newer be fixed if they dont adress it.

[Moortee-living-flame]

It’s wow people always play the class and spec that are the one who is most op for the moment.

[Eleguard-wild-growth]

Oh pls dude just stop …

We got it you don’t like seal twisting and you’re sad that they’ve decided to put this playstyle into the game (who’ve existed this the dawn of wow) over smite priest, you don’t need to spam that on every thread now …

and for real it’s not like you have many other way to play a pally dps so play those ones and stop being a crybaby about it …

Grow up now

[Nahmon-living-flame]

The problem with your wheelchair class is that they buffed shockadin so much that a healer is top dps with 14k dmg compared to the rest with 11k and ur other broken spec that is seal twisting is 13k dps…
Nerf paladin when

[Eleguard-wild-growth]

As for shockadin I’m totally with you it needs to be nerfed and the pally discord knows that completly

As for the 13k dps for ret, I have some news for you pal it’s completly irrelevant.

Those 13k are the result of sims, so it’s based on a fight with no mechanics with a boss that doesn’t move so we can have an idea of the maximum potential of the spec (and btw Hunters is doing more so by you logic we need to nerf it too so it get in the same dps range as other classes right ?)

But in practice those numbers are COMPLETLY different and you just have to look for it on Warcraft log

And you’ll see that the average ret paladin is doing around 5-6k dps on most fight while the best of the best can go for 7-8k so around the same dps as a Hunter would do if we’re looking at the same source

[Nahmon-living-flame]

Ok i agree with you if you say those are the ret numbers that doesn’t seem like much of an abuse but for shockadin it’s pure insanity they buff that idiotic spec for the last 10 patch notes

[Bubbleturd-living-flame]

You looking at green logs with 7-8k dps? Check Caldoran for example ret doing 13k dps.

Soon all the Ret dps will be very revelant when every paladin and his grandma got Ashbringer

Ret:
Caldoran: 13,425.8
Lillian: 12,015.1
Council: 9,976.3
Beastmaster: 11,976.4
Mason: 10,699.0
Solizstrasa: 13,116.7
Beatrix: 11,933.7
Balnazzar: 11,627.6

Only class that is around ret dps is Warriors with absolutely full bis.

I did around 5k dps with 0 Scarlet gear and a crappy weapon

[Eleguard-wild-growth]

Nope I’m litterally looking at logs right now and I can tell you that the numbers I have are totally correct,

The numbers your giving are the top 1 so the players with almost full bis and with a perfect scenario

If we’re looking at the logs to parse a 99 on each boss this week we needed:

Balnazarr: 7.5k
Beatrix: 8.8k
Solistraza: 9.1k
Mason: 7.2k
Beastmaster: 8.2k
Concil: 7.8k
Voss: 8.8k

And for caldoran we don’t have enough data to make a median parse average but I got a 64 parse for being around 6.6 so we can guess that th 99 should be around 8k too, anyway my point still stand

You people need to stop comparing yourself with the top parsers cause you’re not

(+ you did 4k8-9 on 2 fight since the launch of p8 lol on all the other ones you were around 3-4k lmao x) )

[Potatomilk-living-flame]

@Eleguard-wild-growth

You people need to stop comparing yourself with the top parsers cause you’re not

this fit better to tell the paladin community.
those are the type of players who unironically delude themselves into thinking the reason they succeed as paladin is because they’re just that good at the game and not because its just busted OP.

this “expansion” or version, or whatever you want to call SOD, has so far been plagued by 1 very weird phenomenon - more ret andies than ever who pretend to be experts at wow and then crying in unison when things don’t go as they want it.

[Eleguard-wild-growth]

Come on pota … we know … you’re salty about what they did to your blue boy in p3 even after all the effort you’ve done to defend it no matter how op it was in p2…

But it’s not a reason to be blind on the data we have right now

Cause all you’re giving right now are salt and hate, while I give proofs of what I’m saying and I’m still waiting for yours

[Bubbleturd-living-flame]

And i had 0 SE gear with that DPS. In 2w i get ashbringer aswell so i can be 10k dps.

Look at logs again 20man or 40man, there is 30% pink bubbleboys top 100 dps of all fights along all classes.
Just for caldoran there is 37 ret paladins top 100 of all classes(40man).
In 2-3w every paladin gonna have Ashbringer and top 100 gonna be all pink for every boss.

Other classes in full BiS reach around 9-10k dps, while paladins reach 13k (along with warriors cleaving and Warlocks Shadow Volley) according to logs.

[Eleguard-wild-growth]

@Bubbleturd-living-flame

And i had 0 SE gear with that DPS. In 2w i get ashbringer aswell so i can be 10k dps.

Congratz you’re doing a Little more dps a ret pally was supposed to do on average at the start of se, you want a medal ?

(And btw ashbringer will not give you 10kdps magicaly lmao)

@Bubbleturd-living-flame

Look at logs again 20man or 40man, there is 30% pink bubbleboys top 100 dps of all fights along all classes.

AGAIN those are the top parsers stop looking to compare yourself to them they are almost full bis with a raid comp of 80-90+ parse average players during sod…. So the fights are much shorter and that’s why pallys and Warriors are on top both have big burst AND can wield ashbringer …

You don’t need a degree in rocket science to understand this ….

@Bubbleturd-living-flame

Other classes in full BiS reach around 9-10k dps, while paladins reach 13k (along with warriors cleaving and Warlocks Shadow Volley)

What the f… are you talking about ? On logs all bosses the best ret (since apparently is the only thing that matters) is at 10k average in 40 and and 11k+ in 20 (and he is not even the top lmao) every other classes in the top are in that range too …