In the recent light of things I've become curious to know what other ret paladin feelings are on our now lost Seals system. Both empowered and regular.
What are your thoughts on the system? Do you think it added depth to the spec? Do you feel like it filled our fantasy? If so please explain why. Talk about your PvP and PvE experiences if you don't mind.
If you disliked the system please also explain why. Was it too complicated? Do you feel like it wasn't worth the effort of using each Seal to its fullest? If so please tell if you were a PvE or a PvP player.
The reason I only ask about seals instead of seals AND auras, is because when the resistance stat became redundant so auras completely lost their skill cap.
Seals however have been a staple of ret paladin play all the way up until Legion. Since we lost them, as a PvPer, I feel like the ret spec has lost a large chunk of its 'soul', if you like.
The Seals for me were hugely effective for overcoming different situations, Empowered Seals created a style of game play that I hadn't experienced in WoW before.
Reactive and anticipatory, you ran the show and could react to the show at the same time because the talent was so well rounded.
I would really love an explanation from Blizzard as to why Seals were removed from the game, not just for them to shout "CLASS FANTASY" and run away behind the guise.
Please leave your comments, stories, constructive criticisms, thoughts, dislikes, and anything else you can think of here for the dev team to see, guys.
I have posted in these comments for a few years, and read them for a few years longer than that. Please come alive here and tell your stories.
I would personally love to see a proper seals system back on the map for us ret paladins. Cheers.
2 Likes
Seals give a lot of depth gameplay on paladins, on all specs. Was like Warriors stance.
The simply action of dance seals for optimize our dmg (like maintain stacks of Censure, and swap to other seal for more damage / utility), or healing (with seal of light), or maybe tune a bit ST to AoE (mop and wod seal of righteousness), or using seal of justice to limit enemy mobility make a really good and satisfactory rotation to our gameplay, because its make a HUGE skill diference between paladins that use all seals over one that never swap it.
Same with auras. The knowledge about when swap a aura to mitigate damage or make effective some effects (like lich with talents or TBC with sanctity aura to boost damage), make a difference (not as big with seals). And if i should talk about empowered seals, i can literaly talk one week non-stop about it, because it was the best, and most skilled thing to master with paladin.
Paladin skillcap must be around how to support properly, and seals / auras do it. Now, we have only a few spells with a big - medium cooldown.
Now ret is a slow-mode gameplay, holy paladin is a burst cds bot with low sustained heal and tank is an amazing short cd spammer that do all on rotations.
Paladin design MUST roll back or swap the direction. Now is feeling boring and garbage.
The simply action of dance seals for optimize our dmg (like maintain stacks of Censure, and swap to other seal for more damage / utility), or healing (with seal of light), or maybe tune a bit ST to AoE (mop and wod seal of righteousness), or using seal of justice to limit enemy mobility make a really good and satisfactory rotation to our gameplay, because its make a HUGE skill diference between paladins that use all seals over one that never swap it.
Same with auras. The knowledge about when swap a aura to mitigate damage or make effective some effects (like lich with talents or TBC with sanctity aura to boost damage), make a difference (not as big with seals). And if i should talk about empowered seals, i can literaly talk one week non-stop about it, because it was the best, and most skilled thing to master with paladin.
Paladin skillcap must be around how to support properly, and seals / auras do it. Now, we have only a few spells with a big - medium cooldown.
Now ret is a slow-mode gameplay, holy paladin is a burst cds bot with low sustained heal and tank is an amazing short cd spammer that do all on rotations.
Paladin design MUST roll back or swap the direction. Now is feeling boring and garbage.
2 Likes
this is such a good post, i remember seal dancing i Cata and optimizing your dps. for me personally the most entertaining Ret paladin has ever been was in wrath, the mastery was Trash, but you had alot better class feel with alot less downtime, Holy avenger and wings. and Divine purpose just beeing a baseline passive ( as it should have stayed! ) but i do also remember the OG seals from vanilla, and they also had their charm, but they could feel a tad repetative and lack luster. so in my opinion the "stance" versopn of seals was a way to keep them but now make them the main part of rotation. i do feels in the last few years its been more and more focus on easy to play and low skill curves over having more abilities and how the class feels.
As far as Seals go I did enjoy some, not all, since a good chunk were not good, tho that mainly depends when you played I guess.
I for my part would like to see them back, performing different roles as they use to, potentially now giving us a grater toolkit in both pvp and pve. But in case this does not happen no big loss.
What I truly miss is the old judgment system, key point, judgment of justice. (Mainly for pvp)
Sadly in todays day, Ret needs a more serious rotation, and not whack-a-mole as its always been. Sure, you have priorities of what to use first, but outside of that we are screwed mainly by extremely long cds that force us to amass 50-60%+ haste to be able to play half legit.
As for pvp (What I mentioned above) the game moves a lot faster then it did before, in a world of speed and cc we are seriously left behind by most classes. Where once most classes were slow, and had low to medium mobility we were on par, and yes while we maybe lacked CC we could still somewhat compete. Now? try chasing a DH, Monk, Rogue, Mage, or anything else with good mobility and control. No amount of damage makes a difference when you cant connect to your target.
In any case, I strayed off the topic a bit, but to connect back, while some of these spells returning would be looked upon potentially as flavor spells from my point of view, they would at this time (BFA) not change anything for us. Ret Paladins need a new design, something a bit faster, or maybe easier flowing, and unless they really did something revolutionary with seals I fear it would not be what we are looking for.
On top, seeing as since release till now there has not been a single serious change for Ret (At least not that iv seen) I am kind of sure that nothing will change for us in this xpac, regardless of all the issues and the fact that Ret is dead last on the logs.
I for my part would like to see them back, performing different roles as they use to, potentially now giving us a grater toolkit in both pvp and pve. But in case this does not happen no big loss.
What I truly miss is the old judgment system, key point, judgment of justice. (Mainly for pvp)
Sadly in todays day, Ret needs a more serious rotation, and not whack-a-mole as its always been. Sure, you have priorities of what to use first, but outside of that we are screwed mainly by extremely long cds that force us to amass 50-60%+ haste to be able to play half legit.
As for pvp (What I mentioned above) the game moves a lot faster then it did before, in a world of speed and cc we are seriously left behind by most classes. Where once most classes were slow, and had low to medium mobility we were on par, and yes while we maybe lacked CC we could still somewhat compete. Now? try chasing a DH, Monk, Rogue, Mage, or anything else with good mobility and control. No amount of damage makes a difference when you cant connect to your target.
In any case, I strayed off the topic a bit, but to connect back, while some of these spells returning would be looked upon potentially as flavor spells from my point of view, they would at this time (BFA) not change anything for us. Ret Paladins need a new design, something a bit faster, or maybe easier flowing, and unless they really did something revolutionary with seals I fear it would not be what we are looking for.
On top, seeing as since release till now there has not been a single serious change for Ret (At least not that iv seen) I am kind of sure that nothing will change for us in this xpac, regardless of all the issues and the fact that Ret is dead last on the logs.
Save your nostalgia for classic wow. Seals sucked and we don't need them back.
07/11/2018 21:41Posted by CrîpxooSeals give a lot of depth gameplay on paladins, on all specs. Was like Warriors stance.
The simply action of dance seals for optimize our dmg (like maintain stacks of Censure, and swap to other seal for more damage / utility), or healing (with seal of light), or maybe tune a bit ST to AoE (mop and wod seal of righteousness), or using seal of justice to limit enemy mobility make a really good and satisfactory rotation to our gameplay, because its make a HUGE skill diference between paladins that use all seals over one that never swap it.
Same with auras. The knowledge about when swap a aura to mitigate damage or make effective some effects (like lich with talents or TBC with sanctity aura to boost damage), make a difference (not as big with seals). And if i should talk about empowered seals, i can literaly talk one week non-stop about it, because it was the best, and most skilled thing to master with paladin.
Paladin skillcap must be around how to support properly, and seals / auras do it. Now, we have only a few spells with a big - medium cooldown.
Now ret is a slow-mode gameplay, holy paladin is a burst cds bot with low sustained heal and tank is an amazing short cd spammer that do all on rotations.
Paladin design MUST roll back or swap the direction. Now is feeling boring and garbage.
^ What Cripxoo said. I agree with all of this except the TBC part since I did not play back then to have a clue about what it was like. I cannot say with a straight face that I miss Auras, but I really, really miss Seals. :/
With the introduction of Empowered Seals in WOD we were presented with a mechanically advanced talent which required knowledge and prediction in order to be used efficiently in PvP scenarios.
08/11/2018 17:15Posted by KipreosMoreover, I believe that, the unique play style of empowered seals also increased the skill cap of the class. In many cases, I have overcome battles while was outnumbered simply because I used my utilities in a smart way. That's extremely rewarding to the player since the skill translates to better and more fun game play.
^ And, this.
Thanks for the responses so far all! Some insightful points and concerns risen. @Tavil, please expand on your dis-likes of the system for constructive purposes.
Agree fully with comments concerning Empowered Seals, this particular use of the seal system really brought ret paladin game play to an interactive, fulfilling level, and as mentioned, could fill holes in our "lacking" game play right now.
All just my opinion, of course.
Agree fully with comments concerning Empowered Seals, this particular use of the seal system really brought ret paladin game play to an interactive, fulfilling level, and as mentioned, could fill holes in our "lacking" game play right now.
All just my opinion, of course.
I miss seals alot too, I believe it did add another lay of skill cap to the game. It also helped making the class a bit different from other classes. Having to switch seals based on the circumstances in both PvE and PvP.
I believe it was way more impactful during Wrath. Switching seals, for single target, for AoE, mana rege, health regen or stunning. We didn't have a kick so Seal of justice was sort of useful from time to time to prevent a cast or too. Or atleast to delay them, of course we had instant repentance, but when it was on cd along with Hammer of Justice you still had something to work with.
It started getting dumb down in Cata and got worst over the following expansions but in late WoD, it was sort of redeem with Empowered Seals, having to switch seals again for maximum effeciency, it was mandatory to play Empowered Seals but if you were playing it, it required you to constantly keep track of your buffs and to know what you needed in specific circumstances, you need more AP and haste to deal damage, or do you need haste and health regen to heal up. Maybe you need to chase someone, so justice with haste and AP . Or perhaps it was time to retreat, so justice, health regen with haste buff.
Then Legion came out and they thought it was a good idea to started pruning again, because "it went so well with the first pruning for WoD" /sigh
I just wish we had our seals back. Also maybe a glyph to get rid of the horse. I don't mind having no animation for the speed boost ability, I just never liked the horse, and I want to get rid of it.
I believe it was way more impactful during Wrath. Switching seals, for single target, for AoE, mana rege, health regen or stunning. We didn't have a kick so Seal of justice was sort of useful from time to time to prevent a cast or too. Or atleast to delay them, of course we had instant repentance, but when it was on cd along with Hammer of Justice you still had something to work with.
It started getting dumb down in Cata and got worst over the following expansions but in late WoD, it was sort of redeem with Empowered Seals, having to switch seals again for maximum effeciency, it was mandatory to play Empowered Seals but if you were playing it, it required you to constantly keep track of your buffs and to know what you needed in specific circumstances, you need more AP and haste to deal damage, or do you need haste and health regen to heal up. Maybe you need to chase someone, so justice with haste and AP . Or perhaps it was time to retreat, so justice, health regen with haste buff.
Then Legion came out and they thought it was a good idea to started pruning again, because "it went so well with the first pruning for WoD" /sigh
I just wish we had our seals back. Also maybe a glyph to get rid of the horse. I don't mind having no animation for the speed boost ability, I just never liked the horse, and I want to get rid of it.
There is no gameplay to seals. We used seal of command all the time. 30sec duration selfbuff. Later duration was increased to 2minutes then 30 minutes and finally removed. It the end we had a single target seal and aoe seal we just switched between. It was just an extra GCD with zero gameplay.
08/11/2018 21:53Posted by TavilThere is no gameplay to seals. We used seal of command all the time. 30sec duration selfbuff. Later duration was increased to 2minutes then 30 minutes and finally removed. It the end we had a single target seal and aoe seal we just switched between. It was just an extra GCD with zero gameplay.
Thanks for expanding.
Do you speak of PvE, out of curiosity? I have little to no PvE experience up until Legion, when they changed the ret spec to its current state I lost all interest in playing the game, however still did/do some casual PvE when I'm online. (All my PvP buddies quit, up until Legion I played only PvP).
I understand your point however if it was all there really was to use, (just Seal of Command), however others have commented that when used correctly the seals could benefit the class through various means, not just hoping for a SoC proc.
Did you familiarise yourself with Empowered Seals whilst it was available? There was interactive game play in that talent for sure.
Apologies if I sound bias towards seals, of course I've already stated I'd like to see them return in some form, but I'm curious to understand if people found the system resulted in 'no gameplay', why that was, so thanks for answering.
As a once persistent PvPer I had always found most of the seals had very useful additions to offer, others already mentioned the mana return when it was relevant, the stun / slow in SoJ's later iterations, dots from SoV, aoe attacks, and that isn't including the deeper game play that was brought with EmpS.
08/11/2018 21:53Posted by TavilThere is no gameplay to seals. We used seal of command all the time.
You must be talking about PvE then, because in PvP it had a really high skill-cap and you could not afford to only play with 1 Seal.
EDIT: And even in PvE you needed to seal swap between Righteousness and Truth.
1 Like
I miss seals alot. They were there since vanilla, it was super fun and we almost used all of them depending of the situation/fight. But overtime seals were so simplified and weak that it caused them to get removed.
Blizzard could just add like 2-3 seals that actualy do something notorious like they did back in hum wowtlk? TBC? Seals really fit paladin fantasy and will always fit.
Take a look at this printscreen that I took yesterday while I was leveling my druid :')
http://prntscr.com/lg34r6
Im jealous of a mob, blizzard!
Blizzard could just add like 2-3 seals that actualy do something notorious like they did back in hum wowtlk? TBC? Seals really fit paladin fantasy and will always fit.
Take a look at this printscreen that I took yesterday while I was leveling my druid :')
http://prntscr.com/lg34r6
Im jealous of a mob, blizzard!
They were so much fun! :(
Despite some people saw the having to refresh the seal as a nuisance, I thought it to be a fun way to vary the judgement effects. They fit the class lore greatly and made the rotation feel more alive in a way.
Despite some people saw the having to refresh the seal as a nuisance, I thought it to be a fun way to vary the judgement effects. They fit the class lore greatly and made the rotation feel more alive in a way.
1 Like
Seals and Auras would be good to come back only if they're off the global cd.
1 Like
10/11/2018 02:00Posted by LovelaThey were so much fun! :(
Agreed, care to expand on the point and share some experiences? The more details and reasoning we can gather the more it might help in a rebirth of some form of seals system. Thanks for replies all!
Also if you dis-liked the system please come forward and explain why as others have already. Cheers.
I miss them The Paladin class just feels boring without the seals and the auras.
1 Like
I really enjoyed the seals when the Judgement ability depended on them. Add different kinds of debuffs on the target or just plain damage, depending on what seal you had activated. And sometimes you would end up seal dancing to fit whatever situations you had to adjust to. Sure, a lot of times it would be obvious what to use (in my opinion) - but it was still -something- and it fit the class fantasy. Much unlike now. If anything if we had it now, maybe it'd reduce our downtime of not doing anything while waiting for an ability to be available.
1 Like
Empowered seals was lit af bc it was interactive and rewarding.
2 Likes
@Thete thanks for the Youtube response and your unbiased views from a PvE perspective on the potential problems of an 'old' seals system in the current game + some ideas on how a 'new' system could be implemented.
Also some great memories came back whilst talking of the old school stuff.
If anyone wants to take a look they can find it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJseWpOUBB4
Also some great memories came back whilst talking of the old school stuff.
If anyone wants to take a look they can find it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJseWpOUBB4
For PvP, yes.
For everything else, hell no. Seals had no gameplay to them at all. It was just, oh look it's single target push seal #1, oh it's aoe now push seal #2 and that just always felt like wasting a global for a minor increase, kinda like Inquisition always felt but at least Inquisition has a lot more value to it now.
For everything else, hell no. Seals had no gameplay to them at all. It was just, oh look it's single target push seal #1, oh it's aoe now push seal #2 and that just always felt like wasting a global for a minor increase, kinda like Inquisition always felt but at least Inquisition has a lot more value to it now.