Dont Shoehorn Paladins into a Playstyle We Dont Want

WoW Classic Season of Discovery
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Don’t gut Paladin by changing Art of War and Seal of Martyrdom.

This is Season of Discovery and was supposed to be a fresh and fun experience. You spent phase 2 and 3 building Paladin a certain way, that people had come to like and it offered something new for Paladin that was different to all other flavours of WoW.

Now in the P4 PTR, you have done a total 180 and sent a wrecking ball through the previous playstyle and have shoehorned Paladins into seal twisting.

Its actually so bad. We went from a playstyle that felt pretty engaging, to something that is just complete brain rot.

I dont have any fun doing this new rotation in the PTR. Why would you literally make a class less fun to play, and alienate a large chunk of people into a playstyle that they dont want.

If people are liking the new style then feel free to keep it, but please dont close down the playstyle that people are already comfortable with and like.

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There we go so the problem wasn’t that we were not doing « enough » damage, but you just don’t like the slow 2 handed playstyle

You just had to say it in your first topic dude

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Problem is people cry either way.

I enjoyed the gameplay with fast weapon, it felt super dynamic which is pretty rare for a classic gameplay but I do have to admit that being stuck with only fast 2H weapons is a bummer since the game doesn’t provide much.

I don’t get why people asked so much for seal twisting. Nostalgia maybe but I don’t find it interesting at all to press one button every 4 sec on a .5 sec window compared to the dynamism from proc exo. Anyway, having exo baseline was completely necessary so it’s a good point, and now that crits only remove 1 sec on the cd I’d very much like to see a dual wielding ret paladin come up. I’m probably dreaming but man that would be fun.

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One of the problems with the fast 2 handed playstyle is as you said the weapons supply. Seriously how much 2 handed weapon is around 2.0 speed ?

This would have made the mcp still bis at lvl60 at this rate and blizzard would have been forced to make new weapons for ret ONLY, just like sul’thraze for p3 offering way less of possibility for gameplay because you would have to farm this only weapon and combine it to the mcp cd to be competitive.

For the seal twisting part I can understand why people may not like the gameplay, at first it seems hard and clunky but the more you’re doing it the better you get, that the way I felt it in tbc classic and I started to like the playstyle but let’s not forget that the 6p t1 is making it way easier to play it

So again, wait and see

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Seal twisting isn’t hard in itself I just don’t find it very interesting. It’s something rets came upon to fill an otherwise empty gameplay and now that we have devs actively making viable gameplays for ret, to ask this back is just… I don’t know, weird to say the least.

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The more you practice ridiculous rotations the more you’ll get them :joy::joy: did you really just say that. People dont want to get used to them, i dont want to have to put 110% of my concentration into a game just to get seal twisting right. Nobody does they dont have the time.

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The problem is both. The damage isnt comparable and the play style is total brain rot and I will continue to post topics all through the PTR to try and prevent this bug gameplay from going live. I would have been happier if we didnt have to twist.

As others have said on more than one occasion, twisting was good in TBC because there was little abillities for ret. With all of our kit now, why are blizzard forcing us into this basically bug gameplay when we have all these other abillities, its just stupid.

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Ridiculous for you funny for others I guess

For the damage I already proved you that it wasn’t the case in your previous topic. That’s funny you didn’t answer to it yet :stuck_out_tongue:

And many people were also posting topic against the fast 2 handed playstyle since its creation in p2, why it wasn’t ok for them to make topics on forums while it’s good if you’re the one advocating for its return ? You had your fun now it’s their turn

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I didnt bother replying to you in last thread because respectfully, you are wrong. And I dont want to deviate from the point of the thread to go on a tangent about it. Your figures of comparing DPS phase 2 to phase 3 are accurate and only serve to prove my point. You are not taking into account the other factors too.

You seemed to suggest the situation is comparable, its not. We are losing DPS going from phase 3 to 4. Your example shows a gain from phase 2 to 3.
Not to mention you are comparing the end of phase 2, to the start of phase 3, when most didnt have the better gear and were mainly using phase 2 gear to keep set bonuses until people could get 2+ pieces of phase 3 gear.
You are also ignoring the mechanics of the fight Grubbis was a straight DPS burst, at the start of phase 3 most groups werent killing atalarion before he casts his knockback. You lost about 200 dps from that straight away if you dont have LIP and spent a few seconds running back to him. Theres more factors you also overlooked but I’m not gonna go over it all and make this reply a wall of text. We need to focus on the point at hand.
In the PTR we already have access to the preraid gear. We should not be doing less DPS than the previous phase.

The DPS from phase 2 to phase 3 shows that a 99 parsers DPS improved.

My situation now as a 99 parser shows that the DPS has decreased from phase 3 to the PTR.

If we still had exo spam playstyle, combined with the gear we are given in the PTR (and a fast weapon) DPS would be around 2k give or take.

My gripe is two-fold:

  1. We are being given a massive nerf
  2. We are being forced to Seal Twist in Season of Discovery. This isnt TBC, we have more kit so we dont need to necessitate twisting.
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That’s litteraly my point … I was telling you that you were comparing the damage we’re doing now as full bis + world buffs to the one we’re doing on the ptr with only pre bis and no world buff and we’re already above the p3 dps by more than a 100 dps on the ptr !!! What do you want more ?! And people are asking themselves why are we called the biggest crybabies on the game …

And you’re absolutely not forced to seal twist by any means since the damage of SoM isn’t normalized anymore so you can just use it until you get 6p t1 who will make the twisting rotation so easy anyway, but don’t come here crying you’re the one who’s right because « I’m a 99 parser » because if you really were you would want to do the effort to learn how to play the class and improve yourself

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What do I want more? MORE DPS.

What do I want more? NOT being forced into a certain old play style. A play style that is incompatible with the current kit that a small vocal minority has managed to push Blizzard towards. We are basing all gameplay off of an old quirk that is basically a bug.

I think you have gotten confused somewhere in your argument, we were comparing phase 2 to 3.

You just said we are doing 100 DPS more in the PTR? How have you worked that out. We are doing less DPS compared to phase 3. The problem is most people that arent parsing high 90s arent going understand the issue.
Looking at your logs and your DPS, yes YOU are getting more in the PTR, but thats simply because you were not playing remotely close to your classes maximum in p3.

I have played to near enough my max and this is a straight nerf. You can go ask others that have played Paladin to its limit in p3 and all will agree we are receiving a massive DPS nerf in the PTR.

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I know the rotation really well and if you’ve looked in detail you would understand why I could not do max damage from my character on this phase while I was able to do it in p1 and p2

It’s funny you’re actually talking about since twisting as a bug that is now an official feature in the game while you’re not doing it for the fast 2 handed playstyle.

You’re basically a hypocrite. Do you remember in p2 when they wanted to remove the synergy between art of war and the crit from seal of martyrdom literally the next week after its release because it was a bug too ? All you guys made a crusade on the devs ordering and begging them to let it as is

So explain to me why is a bug better as an other ?

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I never said one bug is better than another. They could have removed that issue with SoM. I never complained about it. Just removing that small bug would have been a fairer approach than to totally gut the play style.

If seal twisting actually had some merit in the current kit I wouldnt be so critical on it. But it does not. This is something for TBC Paladin. Not something to throw onto us as a main form of our damage when we have so many other abillities.
Seal Twisting worked and was good in TBC because we had nowhere near as many buttons to press. Twisting is literally just asinine. You cant defend it if its going to be the play style we are limited to.

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my humble idea on that, just delete this class already. give the allies some shaman love and release them of this pala-sillyness.

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I think Shaman is the most hated class universally in SoD right now. You might wanna take a leaf out your own book.

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i feel attacked by that and hurt. isnt it time, shamans finally get a bit of a buff and attention too?

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The funny thing now is if you Seal Twist using Exorcism is a DPS loss because its a spell that doesn’t PROC Wild Strikes.

You are better to do this.

Seal Twist > Judge - Re Seal,
Seal Twist > DS,
Seal Twist > CS,
Repeat.

Exorcism is out hardest hiting ability on its own but if you are using a big slow 2 hander if you PROC Wildstrikes with a CS, Judge or DS it hits way harder than Exorcism. I think maximising your PROCs of Wildstrikes in a long fight easily outdps Exorcism and this gap gets bigger than Stronger and Slower your 2 Handed Weapon is.

Exorcism can be used if the target is at range.

I’d say Exorcism is so low priority you probably won’t use more than 1 time in a fight. So for our boot slot we should go the Mana Regen Rune over Art of War if you are Seal Twisting as it is Mana intensive and this Rune fixes all the mana problems. Theres no point in reducing the CoolDown for an ability you won’t use.

The difference will come with Improved Hammer of Wrath Rune. Spamming HoW below 10% does more damage than Twisting because the GCD is only 1s. The problem is its very mana intensive but its possible that the Boss will die before you OOM as Classic bosses die fast. If the Boss is not dying fast when you get low mana it will be worth to Seal Twist between HoW and CS a bit too.

If you are not gonna Twist then you probably will use Purifying Power Rune over Improved HoW as it lower Exorcism to 7s and makes it Synergise a bit better with the nerfed AoW. Your rotation then will be something like this.

Exorcism when running up,
Judge - Re Seal, DS, CS, Exorcism,

You will repeat this and you will Conc in your free GCDs where you don’t a Crit and Exorcism doesn’t come of CD fast enough. At higher gear levels you will rarely not Crit so you won’t need to use Conc as much.

Seal Twisting will probs so around 20% more Damage than this rotation so if you are really against Twisting you could honestly do this rotation and not get punished too heavily for not doing it. I imagine Seal Twisting Ret will be middle to upper pack on logs and non Seal Twisting rotation will put you in the middle of the bottom half.

20 man Raids are so hard to fill you probably will get taken anyway even if you don’t Seal Twist or i’m sure a lot of Dad guilds would take a Ret who doesn’t Seal Twist.

At the end of the day you can just Seal Twist if you want to be competitive or chose not to. A lot of Warriors like Arms PvE and are forced to go Fury because it does x2 the damage. If you are suffering so much from this decision maybe reroll, go Prot or Holy spec or start practicing your Twisting so it becomes second nature.

I twisted through the whole of TBC so its like hard baked muscle memory for me now, it takes 0 brain power to do it consistantly. You could get some practice now on the PTR so you get ahead of all the other Ret players. I’ve responded to 5 of your posts dude so honestly read this and do something I recommended here. They ain’t gonna change it so stop wasting your time spam posting. All you can reasonably ask for is for buffs for the AoW playstyle.

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Just hoping they either bring a lvl 60 fast 2H weapon for those who still wanna try out the current totation OR open dual wielding for paladins. It would synergise so well with the 1sec reduction cd per crit on exo.