What do you think about new talent tree mocap?
What do you like and what do you want to be change until DF start?
Awesome, but they should get rid of restless crew, it’s just a balancing nightmare, instead it should increase the effectiveness of restless blades, or just be redesigned.
When you try to make group buffs like that, it’s always a problem, which is why i don’t usually like them a lot in wow.
1 Like
I feel like the raid and “party buffs” are as useless as what makes disc so “prominent” in content, you can probably live without both but you fully well know top % guilds will want the buffs.
I feel like some talents need juggling around and some talents feel like a waste after being literally cut in half. I could easily see myself neglecting most of the left side of the core rogue tree, in pvp atleast 100%
I’m extremely glad to see Gouge and Garotte return to the base Rogue kit!
I feel like Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness should be in the base Rogue tree. Previously they were near the top of the trees making them easy to pick up regardless of which spec you played. In that Regard I’d also like to see Lethality a bit higher on the tree.
I would like to see a talent that makes Cheap Shot generate 2 combo points again. Maybe couple it with Imp. Ambush and rename it to Initiative like in classic?
Since Flagellation is Subtlety only now I hope they change it slightly to either give a different stat than Haste or increase the lash damage (instead of haste) or something.
I hope they replace Shadow Techniques with Energetic Recovery. Shadow Techniques doesn’t do anything during downtime and while you can track the proc (every 3rd or 4th auto), I’d prefer the consistency of ER.
I’m personally not a fan of the Dance CDR that got introduced in Legion so I’m glad you can avoid Deepening Shadows by going down the sides of the tree. I just hope that it’s viable to do so. I’m not going to gimp myself over preference.
It’s interesting that you can convert Sepsis’ damage type from nature to shadow with Dark Brew but I wonder how impactful that will be besides it getting amped by Deeper Daggers.
2 Likes
Shadow dance cd reduction was awesome, i don’t wanna play a build where i do 50 % of my damage in a 9 second window every 1 min.
Still the second favoured child after Mages. After all those years. Mama still loves rogues best… after mages.
2 Likes
IMO the frequency warped the rotation and removed that special feeling of Dance.
It also simplified the rotation outside of Dance and reduced the damage we do outside of Dance.
I prefer it as a cooldown like Pillar of Frost over it being a mini-cooldown like Symbols, Tiger’s Fury, or Shiv for Assa.
It’s also pretty busted to have such frequent access to Cheap Shot and Sap in PvP. Currently you have Dance for (almost) every Kidney go.
Sorry, can’t say i agree.
Sub rogue outside of dance is bad, inside dance it flows much better, id rather have dance up more time for a more consistent damage output than dance every 1 min, dealing insane burst, and then the rest of the rotation being bad for 51 seconds.
Special feeling of dance be damned, all i care about is how the rotation actually feels to play.
1 Like
They can just do something else to make sub feel better outside of dance though.
If Garotte deals enough damage we might be pressing that outside of dance at the very least. I think we will, according to wowhead it deals 108% attack power over 18 sec. Comparatively Gloomblade does 56,5812%.
Maybe Seal Fate will be decent on Sub. Deadly Precision + Imp. Backstab + Lethality gives Backstab/Gloomblade 28% more crit chance.
The problem is that more damage is not more better in terms of gameplay.
I like shadow dance because of the rotation inside shadow dance, not just because more damage.
Class Tree:
-
Put Shiv in the 1-8 Point section. It should remain an optional Utility ability for the whole Class. Toxic Blade could return as the Nature Damage buff for Assassination, so those 2 functions would be kept separated. All affected DPS Talents changed to instead buff Toxic Blade.
-
Rethink Alacrity and So Versatile. Put something more interesting there. Instead of flat Stat buffs, maybe something affecting Energy and Combo Point generation through ability usage.
-
Pathing in the middle could have a bit more routes. If Iron Stomach and Prey on the Weak were both linked to where Recuperator currently is, that would allow for some interesting ways to spend points early on.
-
Find Weakness is kinda pointless as a bottleneck to Shadow Dance as is, since not all Specs gain equally from it. Maybe just turn it to a flat damage% buff to Instant Damage (promoting Active Abilities, instead of Passive white Damage).
-
Earlier access to Seal Fate would offer some interesting gameplay, as you are leveling. More chances for that “This is awesome!” moment, to hook you in.
-
If only for the lols, put Death From Above somewhere here. It’s just so much fun!
-
Putting Recuperator + Iron Stomach, then Leeching Poison + Elusiveness on the same nodes would allow for us to customize how we want to handle self-heals and mitigation. As we couldn’t have all at once, the respective abilities could be buffed to hold their own. This would open up some room for new Talents as well.
-
With a bit of room created, we could add old stuff like Unfair Advantage (if target has less health% than you, increase Crit Damage for 3sec), or Deadly Throw (ranged slow/interrupt Finisher at 5CP). Remorseless Attacks (after killing a target, gain 40% chance for your next Combo Point Generator to Crit) would be cool for Solo Play.
2 Likes
If you actually look at the Talents, you’ll see that most are stuff the Class has had since Vanilla or BC. Sub and Outlaw had a rework in Legion, but after that, even they are basically working with the same exact toolkit. For context, Legion launched in Fall 2016.
So, hardly that favored. Rogues just have a solid foundation, so Blizzard hasn’t needed to be too innovative for it, in order to make it work.
It’s like you’re purposefully misunderstanding me…
I specifically focussed on stuff that impacts the rotation. I mentioned the damage numbers on Garotte just to speculate if it’s worth to press (which impacts the rotation). Seal Fate changes the rotation with the extra combo points it generates.
1 Like
Seal fate is something that you get regardless, you won’t necessarily have to give up shadow dance cd reduction.
Outside of shadow dance, sub rogue rotation just feels bad, seal fate will help you reducing the cd of shadow even more, but if you don’t have it talented, it will help with some energy regen, so the gameplay will improve, but no one wants to cast backstab, that’s the actual problem.
Rotation in shadow dance>>>>>>>rotation outside of shadow dance.
It’s not that i’m misunderstanding the point, it’s just that seal fate is not enough to make the spec fun outside of shadow dance. Deadly precision, lethality, these are just damage increases, they are not important for actual gameplay.
1 Like
Some talents are in both the subtlety and rogue tree, like shadowstep and “shadow” … is this intended?
the biggest pro is there are no cons 
it’s rogue afterall , meta in everything always.
i get what you mean, but i’m not sure what my opinion is at this point.
in a weird way they’ve made sub too fluid and flexible, and as a result it has become generic. we get so flooded with resources, do a great job swapping targets, have ok aoe that is easy to swap to.
but on the other side of the coin we have no cooldowns, no burst and no dps niche. we do decent boss damage, decent add damage, decent funnel damage, decent-ish aoe if adds live long enough. our cleave is horrendous but other than that we’re very flexible.
the trouble with being so flexible is we have nothing that makes us anything other than generic dps #7 in the group. i miss having some purpose in my raid group. maybe i’m the guy who blasts the add, or i carry boss dmg, or i help burn an important shield, or i funnel great at one time. you know, just SOMETHING that makes me feel like what i’m doing in the group actually matters. because right now if i’m playing well or not dps wise has largely no relevance because i have no role. i just do stuff, and i do ok at most of it. not good, not bad.
we also don’t get assigned to mechanics anymore, so don’t do that either. and have no raid utility, so don’t do that, though maybe that’s getting a little better but i’m not sure i’m that interested in the kind of utility we’re being given.
i miss being THE GUY for something. where i feel like i am someone who actually matters in the raid group, rather than just a random generic dps that’s easily swapped out for anything else.
i remember carrying with soaking on tichondrius. i remember being top boss dmg by a mile on desolate host because of funnel. i remember doing massive boss dmg on like everything, even though overall dmg wasn’t great. i remember agonizing poison making it so you basically couldn’t switch targets, but damn did you blast on boss.
i just wanna do something that’s special, even if it comes at the expense of being a jack of all trades. jack of all trades is so bland.
3 Likes
I think the goal in general should be to have a spec that is good at everything but optimally excels at something. I don’t like being the st guy, or the aoe guy, i like being the can do everything guy, but excels at something.
They should bring back the eviscerate funnel.
Maybe not to the degree it was before, but a % damage boost based on the how many enemies you hit with shuriken, just like it used to.
The problem is that there are only so many niches, so there’s gonna be some overlap with other classes. Not only that, but some niches straight up matter more than others. For example, funnel is a powerful niche.
But at the same time, overspecializing leaves with specs that are really good at something but suck at everything else, that is no better than having no niches at all, and everything being 100% homogenized.
But in the end, the most important thing is: Is the actual spec fun to play with? And shadow dance is fun to play, while being outside of dance is boring.
1 Like
The “gives you a charge of shadowstep” sounds like very deliberate wording to me
Seal Fate has more value outside of dance than inside because Shadow Strike doesn’t benefit from the 15% crit on Improved Backstab. They are not just damage increases if they impact your rotation by way of extra combo point generation.
You say the rotation outside of Dance feels bad, but why? The extra combo point on Shadow Strike? Master of Shadows? Why does no one want to cast Backstab?
I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, I love the rotation during dance too! I just feel like if you give feedback as to why the rotation outside Dance is dissatisfactory rather than shooting down the idea of having dance be a cooldown again, maybe a dev would see it and improve the spec.
To me the point of energy is so that you can’t fill every global and personally I’m fine with having to pool energy for burst to fill every global in Dance.
That’s why I like Rogue and Feral, because they have this ebb and flow of apm (and the class fantasy ofc).
In that same sense I don’t feel the need to have what used to be a cooldown up every 20-30 seconds. I 100% agree that currently only having Backstab as a builder outside of Dance feels bad. Luckily we’ll at least get Garotte which might fill a similar role to mop/wod-era Hemo.
1 Like