You are so full of crap. I and other people have explained to you multiple times how and why that number isn’t indicative of the playerbase or their ability to complete a +10 key, and you are fully aware of the fallacy you’re committing but doing it anyway. I know you’re not that stupid. I even gave you an analogy which you successfully ignored.
I know you’re not usually like this in other threads but holy cow you’re so insufferable about this topic.
I responded on someone saying heroic scales to M0. Which is in the next season still without mythic affixes because it is heroic.
I responded on someone saying heroic scales to M0. Which is in the next season still without mythic affixes because it is heroic.
You are so full of crap not reading. I know you are not that stupid.
I see you’ve gone full on emotions over facts mode at this point. You’re wasting all of these people’s time. They’re genuinely trying to explain things to you, but you’re not willing to even entertain a single argument. It’s like you’ve created your own reality that you, quite insultingly, project to half of the playerbase knowing full well you’re wrong, but admitting to it would invalidate your whole agenda, so of course you can’t let yourself do that.
I don’t know man, until this thread I’ve seen you for years as one of the most reasonable people on this forum, but this topic really made you show your true colours.
I see i am not allowed to say that to you but you are to me 
Then i am full of emotions. Riiight. Good personality 
Shows your true colors.
i am genuinely trying to explain things to you. But you dont want to listen. You ignore statistics, full right or not, they are there. But i am the bad person 
You can’t comprehend that maybe it is you who is wrong. I am finally on the point people indeed see +2-9 is removed. Costed i dont know how many posts. But in the end it is true.
People can keep posting heroic has mythic mechanics next season. I am fine with that. Even when it are 20 people. They are all wrong.
Yes you are because you’re deliberate applying your own biases to the number and coming to conclusions that you cannot reasonable and justifable come to. Not to mention you’re still banging on the with “playerbase” argument when that statistic doesn’t even work with the playerbase as a whole, but only character that did at least one M+.
I do not understand how you can tell me with a straight face that I am “ignoring statistics”, when that statistic is literally the one thing our whole argument revolves around. What I am doing is explaining to you why the conclusion you came to based on that statistic is not reasonable, but you’re not having any of it. My arguments, explanations, examples and analogies are the only things being ignored here, and quite demonstrably so, only by you and Lillith. It doesn’t surprise me with Lillith, but it really does with you.
See. not reading at all. I told here multiple times i need the low keys so i can build it up. I get higher by doing A LOT of keys. And there are specs i have to get carried in +11’s because i can not do +7s myself, even while building up from +2 slowly to +7. I just cant play it.
The statistics show i am not the only one. Maybe the number is lower than 50%, maybe higher, but i am not the only one.
I have explained i am in friends an family groups and they are very happy they got to +6 this season. In the whole season. That is just what their level is. They slowly builded it up.
No my whole argument is more than raiderio-statistics. I am also talking about myself and friends. I have said this already about 50 times too in this topic. But it gets ignored or people just do not want to believe. Well whatever. That is their problem.
But i am very happy for everyone who can just do +10s instant. I am not one of those unfortunately.
And I don’t have an issue with that. It’s really strange to me that it would be the case since you’re capable of doing 25s, but that’s not the point.
The point is that you’re taking this thing that is personal to you and then abusing the 50% taken from raider io as “proof” that 50% of the entire World of Warcraft playerbase cannot complete a +10 key despite trying for a whole season. That’s just objectively wrong and is the main issue I have with your arguments.
You are not. I never said you were. And now you even acknowledge that the number cannot be accurate. So stop trying to mislead people by projecting this personal issue you have on possibly hundreds of thousands of people. There are so many variable that you simply do not know to reasonable say these things as a matter of fact.
Do you know who for sure has better statistics and access to all the variables? Blizzard. And that’s why they’re tuning it the way they are. The difference between a +6 and +10 isn’t that big to begin with. Remove timer and affixes and that difference becomes even smaller.
By “do”, do you mean finish in time, or complete at all? Because once again I find it quite insulting to assume that literally half of the people who play this game are not capable at all of completing a dungeon scaled to M+10 without timer and affixes.
You and your friend are not the playerbase.
I mean, blizz has said before also that the majority of the playerbase isn’t even participating in endgame content. They are story and open world and collector players.
Nobody knows what the real number is, but it isn’t a insignificant one. You are just trying to throw the number away like it is nobody. The number is wrong so it is nobody. Like i have no argument. Well, i do. I am fine when i am the unreasonable then.
We are also the playerbase. We also count.
I think this next season will be alot like start of BFA. First season then i think my highest key was a horribly untimed +7. Will it be hard for those that now are playing in the +2-7’ish range? Yes it will. But at the same time i think its a good thing to get less keylevel bloat to avoid so many «dead» keylevels.
I would have been fine when we had a steeper difficulty in M+. But now they just removed/squished the bottom 10 levels. The learning levels, the levels new players and new specs and new roles, friends and familiegroups are trying to get into. In bfa (season 1) it was steeper. +2 was still very easy. But the difference between +2 and +3 was there.
(my highest was a timed +14 on a reroll in the last 2 months)
Correct. And that in no way means that these people, if they were to try, would not be able to complete that scaled up M0. And that is one of the major reasons why you cannot use that raider io statistic for what you’re trying to prove.
I am not throwing it away, my point is exactly the same as yours: Nobody knows what the real number is. So quit spreading it around like it is a fact. You keep doing it knowing it’s not accurate at all. That is dishonest by definition.
Do you know the worst part? That 50% is for “All Dungeons at +10”. Do you see why that cannot be used as an indicator for inability to complete a dungeon scaled to +10 for 50% of the entire playerbase?
It is a very significant number of players who do not get to +10’s.
Sure i can say from my ivory tower on my main specs i play for forever that everyone is able to run +10s. They just have to read and watch and setup their game just the same amount as me and they are able to. Reality is, we basically play this game as hardcores on our mains.
it is unfortunate you do not take the 50% as significant. Knowing the number is very probably different. But the argument stays. The number on raiderio is 50. That is a fact. That isn’t something i can change. I refered to raiderio, and when i say a different number it will get thrown back in my face that the number on raiderio is different.
To me it is dishonest to just throw the argument the group is significant away by just claiming the number isnt accurate.
To me it is dishonest that we arent allowed to share our experiences and oppinion. You do not want to hear it because i might be right. And i am not allowed to be right. We do not count. We know that now. Thanks
That statistic isnt even worth using,
Because is a number for all dungeons during a season timed on a +10 key.
I play alts whom i dont bother with what key they complete or what keylevel.
I had seasons that my alts only saw a fast +10 or +12 of 1 dungeon just to slowly gear them up through the vault / keep them “relevant” for next season.
None of those alts would fit the statistic even tho i timed 10s and 12s with them.
But never all 8 dungeons of a season.
Even if you time 7 out of 8 dungeons on lvl 10 or higher, you wont be in said arbitrary number.
Its not useful for this discussion at all.
Just stop using it to “prove your point”
The difference in keylevel based on mob hp / mob dmg is around 18% per step, or used to be.
Thats a pretty decent step to keep it challenging but not a big hurdle in the grand scheme of things.
It takes 6 levels of a m+ key to give mobs more than 100% extra dmg and health.
Which is the so called “key bloat” and why people skip keys because there is to low of a challenge “gap”
M+ isnt the place to learn roles and specs. I dont want to have someone in my m+ run that doesnt know pummel is the warrior interrupt and not have it bound.
Normal / heroic and m0 dungeons are there to learn about the class. And so is leveling.
And those 3 places are there to learn mechanics.
All 3 seasons this expansion lacked the HC / M0 dungeons from re-used dungeons. So many people didnt know about Transfusion in Atal’Dazar or other mechanics in other dungeons.
That is exactly what we are getting.
I just dont understand how you can type this and then keep on going it is not okay.
If you were able to play m+7 till m+11s in season 3, it seems that season 4 will be a m+2/m+3 key you can play. And thats the ceiling for you.
For a high itemlevel reward from the vault and you can do it over and over.
You are really overthinking the m0 will be the new m+10 thing. That is just the scaling needed to not get us bored at the end of season 4.
When gear will rise to above 500 ilvl. (From m0 = 509 great vault loot) you will easily gain the dps and health + stats needed.
Which automatically drops the difficulty.
Significant.
8% in DF.
Yes it is. Your oppinion it isn’t.
Ah so that is why we have a lockout. To learn. In M+10 difficulty next season… M0 is gone. I dont know how it is with you but i learn with every level and run i do. And still i am. Also on +25.
No we dont. We get 10 M+ levels squished at the bottom. The rest stays the same.
No, it is in the blue. I did not need to put any thought in it.
Even lower nowadays, it was 18% in BFA i believe.
So a mob with 1 million hp in a +2 has 1.08 million hp in a +3.
Thats peanuts.
Aslong as you dont need the full timer for a +2 that comes down to a very small increment in difficulty.
I think i can find pulls random number out of hat 30% of the playerbase that is serious about m+ that agrees.
No the rest doesnt stay the same.
Normal / heroic and mythic 0 dungeons get significant better loot / difficulty and way better great vault rewards.
Mythic 0 dungeons in weekly vault: ilvl 509. That is end of run m+2 loot.
For no timer, for no “effort for tyrannical or fortified affix”
And finally: difficulty change means keys can go up to 20. But given it is all squished, the current max key level of 31/32 will change to 21/22 in season 4.
So it is squished across the whole board.
So is all the info about the rewards, and reasons why Blizzard is squishing the key levels.
Yet here you are telling everyone it isnt a good change while you dont seem to understand it at all.
Seeing how you keep using the same arguments and arbitrary numbers about “the playerbase”
That is exactly my point. I am fine with making it 18% again. But don’t squish the bottom 10 levels completely away.
You go new in M+, you start nicely at the bottom +2. The dungeon is forgiving and you can make mistakes and a wipe and you still time the dungeon. You have learned stuff, you have new experience and it is positive because you ‘succeeded’.
In the new season the +2 difficulty what we now have is gone. The lowest is in M0 and that is comparable difficulty M+10 right now. You go in, you do stuff wrong, you wipe. You keep wiping, you try to adjust, but it is a crapshow. You leave. Too hard.
The rest of M+ stays the same. They squished 10 levels at the bottom, so we run +10’s next season insteead of +20’s on our mains (or 15’s instead of 25’s). Yes heroic is M0 scaled without mythic mechanics.
I am not sure why the rewards are relevant.
Well, as matter of fact, trying to discredit an argument due to the number not being accurate, is not gonna change the circumstance that the number is most likely only going up with those kind of changes.
And thats pretty much the point of Mistjo.
Doesnt matter if its 10/20/80% of the players that cant do 10.
Finding an entry to M+ is only gonna get harder for those people whereas the experience players just can be happy to skip 10 levels easily, without any differences in difficulty afterwards.
And the whole “We get better gear though” doesnt work as much as you might think.
The way you put it, only baseline difficulty gets adjusted as every season.
But thats just not the case, baseline getting increased for everything, and on top of that they have effectively removed HC and M2 - 9 difficulty.
Therefor in terms of difficulty and practice you now go from NHC → M0 → M10+
And people who arent that experienced are rather take smaller steps in order to learn have every right to be concerned about that.
How do you know that? You don’t have the statistics for people trying and failing to get there.
And even if true how do you know the reasons they didn’t get there? How do you know they were unable to complete it despite their efforts?
You’re just asserting claim after claim with no basis. That’s why I’m still arguing with you.
I’m not disputing that it’s much more of a challenge for people who aren’t like your or me. But it’s a whole another thing to claim that it’s too hard or even impossible for half of the playerbase to even complete a M0 scaled to M+10.
How many times with the 50%. It’s all dungeons at +10. 50% would be significant if it was realistic.
What you’re saying is
How do you not see the problem?
You are allowed to say it, and I’m allowed to call you out on conclusions you came to by fallacious reasoning. I don’t doubt that there are players who struggle at that level, I don’t have a problem with that. People are at different skill levels.
I do have a problem with you with the method you use to brand half of the playerbase as incapable based on a statistic to which you do not know the background.