Dragonflight Season 4 Dungeon Changes Ahead

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

You do you, but dont spout the idea people are forced to pug. That is really not true.

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Märc-ravenholdt

@Mistjo-argent-dawn

You also seem to ignore the 0 leavers in communities.

haha that was funny.

I mean if people leave your keys even in communities . …

Unless you mean push keys above +20 where there is absolutely 0 reason to complete them if not timed

[Damae-auchindoun]

@Märc-ravenholdt

Unfortunately nope. Some people like myself play sporadically so I cannot afford to have neither a guild or a premade group, and the few friends I made from random enconters also play sporadically so there is no real way of playing without pugging for a lot of people.

So you play sporadically, and want to remove something from dungeons because it doesnt fit your style of play?

What does ‘‘sporadically’’ even means in your regard, do you want to remove timers from M+ because you can only play 2-3 hours a week or something?

Removing timers from M+ kills the whole idea of it, part of the difficulty isnt only the affixes and increased DMG and HP, but the timer also plays a role.
There is no need play M+ if there is no timer, since you can progress for 12 hours to get a +26 key done.

nobody will do that (although in Shadowlands there was this one team with 18 hours played in a +15 in the first week)

@Märc-ravenholdt

If there wasn’t extra pressure from affixes, timers, and key downgrades I assure you it would be a more pleasing experience for everyone.

If we remove all the reasons why M+ is difficult or a challenge, what is the use?
no affixes? than most M+ keys are nothing more than some pumped up health and dmg numbers.
Without a timer, which makes it lose way more challenge.

@Märc-ravenholdt

It does make sense to have low and mid range keys, what it doesn’t make sense is to have 30 keystone levels when half would be enough, specially if you take into account that most key ranges are useless for improving your gear.

Season 4 will fix this, and The War Within.
Key stones squished and better overall sense of improvement of difficulty with each keystone level.

@Märc-ravenholdt

I feel like it’s the opposite, people buy boosts because getting loot is SO annoying, unfair and boring that you’d rather pay and be done with it.

I’ve never paid for a boost and never will, but I see no fun in doing the same dungeon 50 times trying to snipe an item. The system needs a change for sure.

People dont buy boosts for gear, since its to unreliable.
They buy them for a achievement or reward they arent able to get without the boost.

nobody is buying boosts to get to 489 ilvl or something.
its for the title / the mount or anything else, but ‘‘buying’’ loot isnt one of them.

@Märc-ravenholdt

Wipes cause disbands because of the timer and keystone downgrades, if those were gone, people would be more likely to stay and try a new approach to the pull/boss until they manage to get it done.

Nah, i wouldnt stay if 10 wipes would mean my now ‘‘M+ without a timer’’ will take me 4 hours just because someone has trouble executing mechanics.

timers / downgrades arent the cause of people leaving.

the lack of performing towards the level you have to in specific keys is causing that.

@Märc-ravenholdt

And what’s the difference between a community and a pug? It’s the same, people you don’t know and will most likely never meet again.

A community is nothing more than a ‘‘bigger’’ guild with people in the same boat as you. no time to properly play enough to have a ‘‘pre-set group’’ so with Discord and community chat in WoW you can arrange groups.

And since you all want the same, you might even stumble into people to play again next reset, instead of pugging and never seeing someone again.

[Märc-ravenholdt]

@Damae-auchindoun

So you play sporadically, and want to remove something from dungeons because it doesnt fit your style of play?

I want it removed because it’s annoying, promoves toxicity and has no purpose or benefit to the players.

@Damae-auchindoun

What does ‘‘sporadically’’ even means in your regard, do you want to remove timers from M+ because you can only play 2-3 hours a week or something?

For me it means that I play 1 month, then quit 2, then play 3, then quit 1 etc etc.

@Damae-auchindoun

Removing timers from M+ kills the whole idea of it, part of the difficulty isnt only the affixes and increased DMG and HP, but the timer also plays a role.

“kills the whole idea of it” and “part of the difficulty” on the same paragraph… maybe try to sort your ideas first.

And that’s just you opinion on what m+ should be, which is different from everyone else’s.

@Damae-auchindoun

There is no need play M+ if there is no timer, since you can progress for 12 hours to get a +26 key done.

Why is that bad though? What’s wrong with a group of players agreeing to spend the whole evening trying a very high key until they get it done with patience and strategy? Why there has a to be a stupid timer that makes your keystone go lower if you fail once?
Why can we not practice high difficulties without losing the possibility to repeat the content?

Keystones going down in level after a deplete is as stupid as if you wiped in mythic raid and you were forced to clear heroic to try again…

@Damae-auchindoun

If we remove all the reasons why M+ is difficult or a challenge, what is the use?
no affixes? than most M+ keys are nothing more than some pumped up health and dmg numbers.
Without a timer, which makes it lose way more challenge.

Affixes are badly designed I won’t argue about that, but that doesn’t make timer any better, both are bad. IMO affixes should be reworked into positive/negative effects and timer should be removed.

@Damae-auchindoun

People dont buy boosts for gear, since its to unreliable.
They buy them for a achievement or reward they arent able to get without the boost.

nobody is buying boosts to get to 489 ilvl or something.
its for the title / the mount or anything else, but ‘‘buying’’ loot isnt one of them.

I think you aren’t very well informed about boosts. Why do you think they do “armor stack” if it’s not for loot?

@Damae-auchindoun

Nah, i wouldnt stay if 10 wipes would mean my now ‘‘M+ without a timer’’ will take me 4 hours just because someone has trouble executing mechanics.

You are always free to leave, having no timer doesn’t mean you’re gonna be forced into 4 hour wipefest runs, not sure why do you assume that.

@Damae-auchindoun

timers / downgrades arent the cause of people leaving.
the lack of performing towards the level you have to in specific keys is causing that.

Untimed key = ugly r. io profile = just leave so you don’t dirty your own image.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Märc-ravenholdt

Untimed key = ugly r. io profile = just leave so you don’t dirty your own image.

HUH?

If someone has no untimed keys, I wouldn’t ever invite them to my group.

[Märc-ravenholdt]

@Elahra-mograine

@Märc-ravenholdt

Untimed key = ugly r. io profile = just leave so you don’t dirty your own image.

HUH?

If someone has no untimed keys, I wouldn’t ever invite them to my group.

So you’d rather invite someone with all 25’s depleted than someone with all 25’s timed?

[Elahra-mograine]

If someone has no untimed keys it’s very likely that they’re a habitual leaver.

[Märc-ravenholdt]

@Elahra-mograine

If someone has no untimed keys it’s very likely that they’re a habitual leaver.

With the current system, why would you stay when the key is already a deplete, is the question… That’s why I’m proposing to remove both the timer and keystone downgrades, so you can keep trying if the group has potential and eventually get it done.

[Irontoaster-amanthul]

I think the general issue with the M+ system is that you do it once and you are done.

Titles, mounts, cosmetics and even RIO. You complete everything on 28 and you got everything. It is enough to do it once and never again. Whether you need 50000 tries to achieve it is a different story.
I still think doing repeatedly successful runs to achieve something is more fun to fail 500 times to succeed once to get something.

pushing keys has exactly this issue right now.
People that completed 25s, don’t queue for 25s. people who open keys for 25s, don’t invite people that didn’t complete 25s to increase their success.

I didn’t really go to key levels that are more prone to fail, because I think it will annoy the heck out of me to (mostly) fail keys because 1-2 players are just terrible.
All my 22s and 23s I did were successful and not a single one failed if I remember correctly.
It was decent fun to get the RIO but now I kinda feel like I just don’t want to run the dungeons on that level anymore.
If I run dungeons for fun, I chose to lower the level so I can brain afk after long day at work.
I feel confident I can do 25s, but I don’t feel like doing it. There is nothing to gain for me and those keys as healer are overly stressful rather than fun for me. I will never reach title range as I am not able to practice so much and don’t have people to play with as I frequently switch time zones because of work

I mean pvp has “farming” rewards like a mount bar and you actually could add a mount bar to e.g. +25 or +20 keys e.g. complete 50 or 100 keys above 20 or above 25 etc.
They added the transmog at 2.5k which is nice and the portals at +20 but again, those are 1 key rewards and tons of people just get it by getting boosted making those rewards kinda useless.

@Uda-uldum

That is a deplete key problem.

when I mean it is not fun when it fails, I don’t even mean because my key will decrease, but more because pugging is gambling. Having a good group is fun as a healer. Having (usually dps) that you need to carry is not fun. If then the key fails because of terrible dps, it is even less fun.

but everyone has different opinion on it.
I still have fun pushing 8-10 characters to 2.7k and collect all the mythic transmogs
I just pushed 3k io on this char to see if that’s fun and for an easier time to get invites in s4 beginning. Doing busy work to climb 16 keys keylevel by keylevel is just meh, especially if you cannot get invited to the last 2 dungeons that you have to complete for all 23s or whatever

[Damae-auchindoun]

@Märc-ravenholdt

You are always free to leave, having no timer doesn’t mean you’re gonna be forced into 4 hour wipefest runs, not sure why do you assume that.

Wouldnt you be making posts then saying: Blizzard please force people to stay with the group till the content is finished?

I dont see how you are fine with this, and arent fine with m+ having a timer.

@Märc-ravenholdt

Why is that bad though? What’s wrong with a group of players agreeing to spend the whole evening trying a very high key until they get it done with patience and strategy? Why there has a to be a stupid timer that makes your keystone go lower if you fail once?
Why can we not practice high difficulties without losing the possibility to repeat the content?

Because that is part of the incentive to play “properly” and not throw 7000 hours in 1 key level

Those things are connected. Failing has a consequence and that will put the pressure on the make you play better. Which many players find enjoying to do.

Else m+ would be long gone or a “not played game mode”
Nobody is playing a game for fun and then hopping into m+ if they dont enjoy anything about it.

If it is so bad as you keep on claiming, why isnt the group finder empty?

@Märc-ravenholdt

“kills the whole idea of it” and “part of the difficulty” on the same paragraph… maybe try to sort your ideas first.

Why, m+ without timer isnt the same and removes part of the reason why it is difficult.
If you remove affixes, that is another difficulty layer removed.

I dont see what is wrong with that statement. Maybe you need to read better.

@Märc-ravenholdt

For me it means that I play 1 month, then quit 2, then play 3, then quit 1 etc etc.

Okay, so you barely play. But want a major change to a system many people enjoy.

Merely because you “cant or wont” be arsed with said timer.
With that playstyle, how much more will you play if m+ would be changed to no timer?

Still the same time? 1 month on, 2 months off etcetera?

What will your next post be; Blizzard, even tho m+ has no timers, because i play sporadically i cant set aside 10 hours to practice my +26 till we complete it. Please make it easier?
Or make the m+ season 1 year instead of 6 months because i only played 1 month during season 3?

Because you simply dont play enough then, to keep m+ worth it for yourself.

@Märc-ravenholdt

Why can we not practice high difficulties without losing the possibility to repeat the content?

I mean, you said it yourself.

[Life-khazgoroth]

@Märc-ravenholdt

With the current system, why would you stay when the key is already a deplete, is the question…

Up to +20, you’d stay because you get loot, vault slots, and possibly rating. Above +20, you might want to stay because you still unlock vault slots and get a key for a different dungeon, but yes, there’s less of a desire to complete a +21 and up key if it won’t be in time. This is often a mutual thing anyway, because few people do +21 and up for gear.

But the same would be true if the run went poorly even if there was no timer. You’d still get a score based on the time, and everyone would know where the score cut off is. If it’s at 30:00, you do a 25, and you know you won’t finish before 30:00, people would leave. No difference. If your idea is that you’d get the same score for completing a dungeon in 75 minutes as you do for completing it in 25 minutes, then I feel this is an unrealistic pipe dream.

Toxicity has nothing to do with the timer. It exists in untimed content just the same. Toxicity is a result of people playing in a way that ruins the experience or the objective for others. It’s a PUG thing, not something you’ll typically see with friends or people from Discord communities.

Then again, even when I pugged some 50 keys last month and this month, I’ve seen extremely little toxicity. Virtually none. I won’t say that it’s a myth, but I feel the claims of toxicity in M+ are often exaggerated.

[Märc-ravenholdt]

@Damae-auchindoun

Wouldnt you be making posts then saying: Blizzard please force people to stay with the group till the content is finished?

No.

@Damae-auchindoun

Because that is part of the incentive to play “properly” and not throw 7000 hours in 1 key level

Again why is this bad if a group of players agree to do that?

If you don’t wanna do it, just clarify it on the group title with things like “quick run” or “know mechanics”.

@Damae-auchindoun

Those things are connected. Failing has a consequence and that will put the pressure on the make you play better. Which many players find enjoying to do.

And many others don’t, so what’s the argument here? Make a poll if you are so confident that you are the majority.

@Damae-auchindoun

Else m+ would be long gone or a “not played game mode”
Nobody is playing a game for fun and then hopping into m+ if they dont enjoy anything about it.

If it is so bad as you keep on claiming, why isnt the group finder empty?

Very simple, the game overall is good so people play it, some things being poorly balanced (pvp for example) or poorly designed (m+ keystones) won’t stop people from playing.

Why is group finder not empty you ask? Because that and mythic raiding are the only challenging content available.
Does this mean it’s a flawless perfect system? Absolutely not.

@Damae-auchindoun

Why, m+ without timer isnt the same and removes part of the reason why it is difficult.
If you remove affixes, that is another difficulty layer removed.

I dont see what is wrong with that statement. Maybe you need to read better.

If you can’t understand why you can’t be dead and alive at the same time then I’m sorry for you. No reason to discuss.

@Damae-auchindoun

so you barely play. But want a major change to a system many people enjoy.

Here we go with the “many people enjoy” thing again, mind to share the link to the satisfaction polls that only you have access to?

Barely play? It amazes me when people assume things they have no freaking clue about.
I said I play sporadically, some months I do, some don’t, but I never stated how many hours I play during those periods so why do you assume I play only a few hours per week?

And even if that was the case, that doesn’t make any of my arguments less valid.

@Damae-auchindoun

Merely because you “cant or wont” be arsed with said timer.
With that playstyle, how much more will you play if m+ would be changed to no timer?

Still the same time? 1 month on, 2 months off etcetera?

Yes, I’d play with the same intensity because my playtime is tied to my free time.

@Damae-auchindoun

What will your next post be; Blizzard, even tho m+ has no timers, because i play sporadically i cant set aside 10 hours to practice my +26 till we complete it. Please make it easier?
Or make the m+ season 1 year instead of 6 months because i only played 1 month during season 3?

Because you simply dont play enough then, to keep m+ worth it for yourself.

You’re just being an idiot at this point, not gonna talk to you anymore.

[Uda-uldum]

@Irontoaster-amanthul

when I mean it is not fun when it fails, I don’t even mean because my key will decrease, but more because pugging is gambling. Having a good group is fun as a healer. Having (usually dps) that you need to carry is not fun. If then the key fails because of terrible dps, it is even less fun.

Yeah, but its the PuG life. It is gambling. But sometimes you dont have a premade. Or, you need PuGs to meet people to create a premade.

Or sometimes, you got some time in the AF and you are alone with out the premade.

Pugs are here to stay. Complaining about them wont improve anything.

However. The thing about gambling, is that if you play enough times you eventually win. Hence the “key depletion problem”.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

@Märc-ravenholdt

@Damae-auchindoun

Because that is part of the incentive to play “properly” and not throw 7000 hours in 1 key level

Again why is this bad if a group of players agree to do that?

If you want to do that you can do that right now too. When the timer runs out you do not get kicked out of the dungeon. Just go for your whole evening +26 run. Why not? If you enjoy that. But i am not interested in raiding so do not make M+ a 5-man raid.

[Uda-uldum]

@Märc-ravenholdt

@Damae-auchindoun

Because that is part of the incentive to play “properly” and not throw 7000 hours in 1 key level

Again why is this bad if a group of players agree to do that?

If you don’t wanna do it, just clarify it on the group title with things like “quick run” or “know mechanics”.

I agree so much here Mistjo that I wanted to post it.

If you want 5 man raids. Then ask for that. Maybe ask for 10 man raid groups or something along those lines.

M+ is what it is. And it should stay the high-octane race its supposed to be.

[Lilíith-draenor]

@Uda-uldum

@Märc-ravenholdt

@Damae-auchindoun

Because that is part of the incentive to play “properly” and not throw 7000 hours in 1 key level

Again why is this bad if a group of players agree to do that?

If you don’t wanna do it, just clarify it on the group title with things like “quick run” or “know mechanics”.

I agree so much here Mistjo that I wanted to post it.

If you want 5 man raids. Then ask for that. Maybe ask for 10 man raid groups or something along those lines.

M+ is what it is. And it should stay the high-octane race its supposed to be.

thing is - even staying there for couple of hours dont guarantee that you will complete it with some groups who are plainly incapable of doing certain mechanics.

there is huge huge crowd of people who should be doing +11 not +21 - but they got carried and they now think that they are ready to play with "big boys " - not realising they are beyond bad

and ye - im one of them - i have much much more fun whle doing like +12 then +20 . and i do miss old times when +15 rewards were max possible .

game was much better then .

[Uda-uldum]

@Lilíith-draenor

and i do miss old times when +15 rewards were max possible .

game was much better then .

I dont care really. I like that gearing is a finite “job” and I can just focus on playing rather than collecting even more pieces of purple junk.

But others dont agree. And IMO a lot of people.

So I guess its gonna stay like this for a while.

[Damae-auchindoun]

@Märc-ravenholdt

You’re just being an idiot at this point, not gonna talk to you anymore.

You are the one in this topic asking to change a game mode many enjoy. (I dont need a poll for that)

And that change is driven because you play a very limited amount per month and than dont play for a few months

So thats the only logical question. What does happen if m+ gets its timer removed and you still arent able to complete the key that you want.
But this time because you dont have the timer or leavers that block you.
Its the fact people dont want to keep trying for 10 hours +.
Like Mistjo said: weekly keys or group listed as: key completion / no leavers are around now.

That is a legitimate concern. And not idiotic.
The fact you responded with that, shows that i debunked your argument about having it changed.

With your limited amount of playtime, the m+ timer isnt the issue. The affixes arent the issue.

Your limited playtime seems to be the issue. And you want a fix that doesnt fix that.

[Damae-auchindoun]

@Märc-ravenholdt

Here we go with the “many people enjoy” thing again, mind to share the link to the satisfaction polls that only you have access to?

No need, raider io has leaderboards for:
Timed keys
Untimed keys
Metrics for amount of keys played.

If it wasnt a loved gamemode, participation would already be very low.
Its a much played part of the game, if you need “satisfaction polls” that is your problem, if you cant see that without said “arbitrary” polls or numbers.

@Märc-ravenholdt

Barely play? It amazes me when people assume things they have no freaking clue about.
I said I play sporadically, some months I do, some don’t, but I never stated how many hours I play during those periods so why do you assume I play only a few hours per week?

On average your playtime will be lower.
If you play 1 month for 40 hours, and than 2 months of no play. Your average playtime is down the drain.

Doesnt really matter if i assume things or not. You arent the typical wow player who comes back daily to do stuff.

But sure, try convincing us we need m+ timers removed. Already a few people are disagreeing with you. And even tho the forum is a small sample size, the amount of keys in the group finder should be enough confirmation that people want to play “within the restrictions of a time limit”

No matter how much nonsense you tell us.

[Elahra-mograine]

@Irontoaster-amanthul

here is nothing to gain for me and those keys as healer are overly stressful rather than fun for me.

HUH?

25s are less stressful than doing keys at or below 20, as a healer. If people fail there, they won’t be healable. The only fight I really hate at 25 or higher is archmage sol, they need to not design bosses like that.